Cleveland Street Scandal Connection?

[Debra A]

I may have made a mistake with the 1901 entry. I am not 100% sure that was our guy. Isn't this area Westminster Abbey?

It looks like them to me. 19 Parker St Westminster?

...that doesn't look far from Cleveland St on google earth (giving it a go, Lynn) to me.

[Debra A]

Here is a quick Timeline:

Born: 1868- Westminster (to Thomas Conway and Catherine Conway)
1871 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with TC Sr. and Kate Conway)
1881 Census-71 Lower George Road, Chelsea (living with Father TC Sr.)
1891 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with Thomas Kelly)
1901 Census-St Margaret and St John (living with Father TC Sr.)

I am starting to think that TC Sr. may have had an alias of Thomas Kelly or the Census got his name wrong in 1891. I say this because Jr. seems to not stray too far for his dad his entire life and the entry with him living with Thomas Kelly is the same location of where he lived with Kate and Sr. as a child. Also, I find it interesting that Eddowes went by the name of Mary Ann Kelly. Did she assume the Kelly name when she was with John Kelly or before that? And last, at the inquest I remember someone questioning daughter Annie about the pension of Thomas Conway. They thought someone might be using his name to collect the pension. That struck me as odd.

So it seems to me, this Thomas Conway, was very near Cleveland Street his entire life.

LC, If you are referring to how that plays into the marriage of Mary Ann. I never put much if any weight into that being a reality. It would have been an interesting addition though.

Sam, Lots of Thomas Conways but only one that had a Ripper victim as a mother.

Jerry, nice article find!
Just a small point that I posted on JTRforums,-I counted at least 50 other lodgers besides Thomas Kelly living at the lodging house in 1891 where Thomas Conway was employed as night watchman and Kelly is a lodger. I don't see the significance in that case. He can't really be said to be living with ' Thomas Kelly' exclusively can he? It's a lodging house, Kelly is a common name they turn up everywhere!

I agree that because Eddowes son was living in Westminster area 1901 this is interesting and worth following up. I only came across one other Thomas Conway b c 1870 in Westminster in 1901 and he was born in Ireland.

[jerryd]

I may have made a mistake with the 1901 entry. I am not 100% sure that was our guy. Isn't this area Westminster Abbey?

Edit: Well the birth place shows Westminster for this guy so maybe I jumped the gun on this post. Sorry for the confusion.

Now the questions for you geographers. Isn't St. Margarets where Parliament, Westminster Abbey etc are? If so, Why would Thomas Conway and sons move to such a prominent area of London? Look at who was involved in the Cleveland Street Scandal. Wouldn't those individuals either reside or work in this area also?

[Sam Flynn]

1871 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with TC Sr. and Kate Conway)
1881 Census-71 Lower George Road, Chelsea (living with Father TC Sr.)
1891 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with Thomas Kelly)
1901 Census-St Margaret and St John (living with Father TC Sr.)

So it seems to me, this Thomas Conway, was very near Cleveland Street his entire life.

Depends what you mean by "very" near, JD. Borough Road is in Southwark, the other side of the Thames from Cleveland St. Lower George Rd (just off Sloane Square) was at least North of the River, but is still about 3 miles away from where all the action was in 1889. Whilst I wouldn't classify that as "very near", there's no doubt that yer man was in London at the right time... question is, how many other eligible TC's were there?

[jerryd]

Here is a quick Timeline:

Born: 1868- Westminster (to Thomas Conway and Catherine Conway)
1871 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with TC Sr. and Kate Conway)
1881 Census-71 Lower George Road, Chelsea (living with Father TC Sr.)
1891 Census- Borough Road, St George the Martyr (living with Thomas Kelly)
1901 Census-St Margaret and St John (living with Father TC Sr.)

I am starting to think that TC Sr. may have had an alias of Thomas Kelly or the Census got his name wrong in 1891. I say this because Jr. seems to not stray too far for his dad his entire life and the entry with him living with Thomas Kelly is the same location of where he lived with Kate and Sr. as a child. Also, I find it interesting that Eddowes went by the name of Mary Ann Kelly. Did she assume the Kelly name when she was with John Kelly or before that? And last, at the inquest I remember someone questioning daughter Annie about the pension of Thomas Conway. They thought someone might be using his name to collect the pension. That struck me as odd.

So it seems to me, this Thomas Conway, was very near Cleveland Street his entire life.

LC, If you are referring to how that plays into the marriage of Mary Ann. I never put much if any weight into that being a reality. It would have been an interesting addition though.

Sam, Lots of Thomas Conways but only one that had a Ripper victim as a mother.

[Sam Flynn]

Certainly interesting if it can be linked to Catherine's son, but Thomas Conway doesn't seem a terribly uncommon name.

Rather more common than I'd have thought, GUT. Here's a Familysearch sample of Thomas Conways born in England in 1868:

Thomas Conway, 1 March 1868, North Shields, Northumberland
Thomas Devas Conway, 13 May 1868, Wimbledon, Surrey
Thomas Conway, 9 Aug 1868, Kelloe, Durham
Thomas Conway, 22 Mar 1868, Neston, Cheshire

I've only included those whose entries include days of birth. There are many more whose entries only give the place and year of birth, but I've left them out. Hopping across the sea to Ireland, we find loads of entries for 1868 Thomas Conways, in the following towns:

Sligo; Kilmacthomas; Newport; Cashel; Ballymena; Westport; Ennistimmon; Antrim; Mayo (DOB: 11 Jun 1868); Mayo (DOB: 23 Nov 1868); Mayo (DOB: 10 Dec 1868); Waterford; Longford; Kilpatrick; Tipperary.

Note there are three TC's born in Mayo that year. I've also found American and Australian TC's born in 1868. Looking a year either side - i.e. 1867 and 1869 - we find a similar pattern. Who'd a thunk that "Thomas Conway" would be such a popular name? Not me, until just now

[lynn cates]

record

Hello Jerry. Just found a family tree in which the son died in 1903, the father, in 1908.

Thoughts?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Mary Ann Kelly

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Some time ago, I found a Mary Ann Kelly not too far from John and Kate. Not very informative, however.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

If you mean that the "Son" had known for some time I considered that, but discounted it because of how young he would have been when his dad and Kate separated, I would say possible but unlikely.

[lynn cates]

known

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Unless, of course, it were someone he had known for quite some time.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

When I first read it I thought it was saying Mar Ann Kelly was his mother and thought oh boy? but then realised I can't read.

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

Hello Jerry. Interesting find.

Odd that Kate gave the name "Mary Ann Kelly" when arrested.

Cheers.
LC

I noticed that but some 17 years after Kate's murder seems more likely to be a coincidence, unless Mary Ann Kelly was in some way related to John Kelly.

[lynn cates]

Kelly

Hello Jerry. Interesting find.

Odd that Kate gave the name "Mary Ann Kelly" when arrested.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day JerryD

Sorry wasn't trying to downgrade it, it has great potential if it can be proven to be the right family.

Interesting that the article implies that the boy didn't know, at first, what the place was about so he was probably a "runner" of some type.

[jerryd]

Agreed GUT. But to have one the exact age in the right area of London narrows it down a little bit. According to the Census reports, Thomas Jr. lived on his own sometime after the 1881 Census when he was thirteen. We know he was away from father in 1891 and living in Southwark with Thomas Kelly.

Also interesting about the Cleveland Street Scandal is the young boys were telegraph boys. Hired not only for sex with the aristocrats, but running letters and correspondence as well. (authentic Ripper letters come to mind, if any are authentic) They worked for the Post Office in addition to Charles Hammond.

I can remember off the top of my head two murders that had a Post Office robbery I believe the same night, Eddowes being one and I think Nichols the other? Also rumor of the Postmaster General being present at Miller's Court for Mary Kelly. Are these major coincidences? Possibly, but having two major crimes coinciding at the same time, with high level London men involved and telegraph boys doing all the dirty work makes me wonder if these two affairs can somehow be linked and because of the people involved, could certainly be covered up.

But I digress, let's see if we can collectively prove that this was Kate's son. Then we might be onto bigger and better things.