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From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

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  • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    btw i beleive your in the DMV area? looks like finally this rain will let up and the sun will come later this afternoon. happy saturday!

    Why thank you. I believe you are a hiker. Just got the Sunday Afternoon Ultra Adventure Hat. Damn, what a nice hat. Phenomenal reviews all over the internet. Yes, very dorky but super protection and super lightweight and comfortable. Got it from REI but looks like it is even cheaper on amazon. Check it out if you need a good sun hat.

    c.d.
    hi cd
    yes i am. love hiking around the potomac, and bay, beach and mountains! thats what i love about this area, its got it all! thanks for the tip about the hat, ill have to check it out.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post


      I agree.

      I would add that the murderer's survival instinct played a part in the timing of the cessation of the murders.
      Well I think the killer had enormous luck on their side not to get caught. What wasn't luck isn't necessarily down to their survival instinct, more the will of their mission...to maintain the mystery.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Curious Cat View Post

        Well I think the killer had enormous luck on their side not to get caught. What wasn't luck isn't necessarily down to their survival instinct, more the will of their mission...to maintain the mystery.

        I agree also that he was lucky - especially on the night of the double murder.

        Of course, he must have wanted to maintain the mystery, but he must also have wanted to survive!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post


          That is not correct.

          He used those words when he was claiming that the Whitechapel Murderer was a Polish Jew.

          My own use of those words was meant humorously.
          No, it is correct. Anderson espoused that the GSG was, in fact, written by the Ripper. Though of course he couldn't know that.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

          Comment


          • Reposting Christian's image of Goulston Street from post#7. As you can see there are four identical entrances (not sure what is out of shot to the right). Each entrance looks like it leads to a central stairwell (the raised brickwork columns). It is a bit of a coincidence that the unrelated graffiti artist and JTR chose the exact same entrance. There must have been dozens and dozens of people going in and out of these buildings every day, and I think to suggest a message that could be taken as racist (and very easily rubbed out) just being left there is unrealistic. It would be like someone going to an area of a town/city/estate/street inhabited by a particular racial group and writing something that could be taken as racist and the locals saying 'nah, we see that all the time, just leave it'. Isn't going to happen IMO.

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            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

              Hi Tom
              But by leaving the apron and writing the graffiti in that off-road location how was he to know that they would ever be found, and more importantly linked to the Eddowes murder because for a start the graffiti bore no relevance to any murder past or present, and the apron piece was nothing more than a screwed up piece of rag.?

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              Hi Trevor, good to see you still kicking around. To answer your question, I'd say it was the same with the bodies he left around. He expected someone would find them and report them. And they did. Where but on a wall would you expect someone to write graffiti?

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

                No, it is correct. Anderson espoused that the GSG was, in fact, written by the Ripper. Though of course he couldn't know that.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott

                I agree with you that Anderson believed that the GSG was written by the murderer (and I agree with him on that point) and it is a very significant fact, because many years later he claimed that the murderer was Jewish, whereas the idea that the GSG had been written by a Jew had evidently never been seriously considered by him or his colleagues.

                But his use of the words definitely ascertained fact had nothing to do with the GSG, but rather with the identity of the murderer:


                In saying that he was a Polish Jew I am merely stating a definitely ascertained fact.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

                  Hello Tom,

                  I agree with Trevor on this. If the Ripper had any concerns about getting credit why go about it in such a half ass way? Why not something along the lines of "tonight it was two" or something specific about the crimes?

                  By the way, welcome back. Hope you intend to put in some time here. You and Sam back as well. The gods have smiled on us.

                  c.d.
                  C.D!!!! I could better answer that question if we had a photo of what was actually written. Instead, we have only an idea of what was written upon which to speculate. But Eddowes' apron under a message written claiming responsibility for the body next to the Jewish club is the most obvious explanation for the whole thing. I can speculate that he intended to write a message above Eddowes' corpose but opted instead to flee with the apron, but who knows. The location in Goulston Street makes sense as it provided him cover and was quiet as he knelt low and wrote his message close to the ground so that it WOULD be linked to the bloody apron. The writing - both the message and its location - make zero sense outside of its connection to the apron.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post


                    The murderer was not seeking credit.

                    His sole purpose was to blame the Jews for the murders.

                    That is why he cut the apron in two, carried it such a long distance, and left a message blaming the Jews practically pointing to the apron piece, which had bloodstains from the latest victim.
                    But if only the killer could have left the apron, then how could he blame the Jews without himself being a Jew? And in that case, why refer to the Jews in the third person? He didn't write 'We the Juwes are the men...'.

                    Yours truly,

                    Tom Wescott

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post


                      I agree also that he was lucky - especially on the night of the double murder.

                      Of course, he must have wanted to maintain the mystery, but he must also have wanted to survive!
                      There's a difference between survival instinct and wanting to maintain the mystery.

                      Had the killer been looking to maintain the mystery but was caught they would most likely have owned up straight away and hidden nothing from that point on. There would no longer be any reason to maintain the mystery.

                      Had the killer been going by survival instinct but was caught they would more likely continue to hide as much as they could and deny any involvement even to the point of being faced with the most obvious evidence. They would still believe there was a chance of getting out of the situation.

                      Comment


                      • Please see my replies below.



                        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

                        But if only the killer could have left the apron, then how could he blame the Jews without himself being a Jew?


                        Do you mean, how could he blame the Jews if he himself was a Jew? ?



                        And in that case, why refer to the Jews in the third person? He didn't write 'We the Juwes are the men...'.


                        I made a similar point a few months ago.

                        I argued that had the message been pro-Jewish - that is to say, denying Jewish responsibility for something - and written by a Jew, it would have started something like:


                        We Jews ...

                        and that the actual wording, The Jews are the men ... is obviously accusatory.

                        I received the customary response that I was making a supposition.




                        Last edited by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1; 03-25-2023, 08:50 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post
                          Please see my replies below.


                          But what is he accusing the Jews of, if by writing the message and leaving the bloody apron he is confessing to being the killer himself? I see it the other way. He is telling the police that the men of the international Working Men's Club are not guilty because he (obviously) is.

                          Yours truly,

                          Tom Wescott

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post

                            Hi Trevor, good to see you still kicking around. To answer your question, I'd say it was the same with the bodies he left around. He expected someone would find them and report them. And they did. Where but on a wall would you expect someone to write graffiti?

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott
                            Tom

                            The bodies were left where they were killed he had no control over where they were left its not as if he could pick them up and carry them to another location.

                            There is no evidence to point to who wrote the graffiti or when it was written. It is wild speculation to suggest the killer wrote it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post
                              The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing

                              (WHITECHAPEL MURDERER)


                              The Jews are to blame for each German soldier who falls in this war.

                              The Jews are the enemy's agents among us.

                              The Jews are responsible for the war.

                              (JOSEPH GOEBBELS)
                              Jews have always been blamed for the crucifixion.
                              Victorian society was more centered on religion, we might say bordering on the fanatical compared with today.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                                Tom

                                The bodies were left where they were killed he had no control over where they were left its not as if he could pick them up and carry them to another location.

                                There is no evidence to point to who wrote the graffiti or when it was written. It is wild speculation to suggest the killer wrote it.

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere between Anderson's claim that it's an obvious fact the Ripper wrote it and your claim that it's wild speculation. Truth is, we will never know. But the weight of the evidence does lean in the direction of the Ripper having written it. What pro-Anderson theorists sometimes miss is this: the fact that Anderson WAS certain the Ripper wrote it, and was also certain (in his mind) that his Polish Jew suspect wrote it, means that whoever his suspect was, that person could read and write in the English language. I'm aware this point is off topic, but it's worth bringing up from time to time.

                                Yours truly,

                                Tom Wescott

                                Comment

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