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  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Id say that he hadn’t arrived yet so I don’t see how we can call him ineffective. It looks like it was a case of the office and the nurses being sent to the mortuary but the nurses just happen to have arrived first. And the police that took the body to the mortuary (which was little more than a shed) got there before the nurses and left the body knowing that the nurses were due to arrive.
    Your sequencing doesn't fit the testimony at the inquest.
    Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body.

    Chandler left 376H in charge, with the mortuary keeper in a locked shed, but when the nurses arrived the body was in the yard. There was some monkey business going on here, but that doesn't prove the same thing happened with Eddowes body.
    Last edited by GBinOz; 09-23-2022, 12:13 PM.
    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

    “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      Its not rocket science, if it can be proved that the killer did not have the time to remove the organs then there must be another explantion and therefore an inference can be drawn as to what did happen to them

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      But I can’t be proved. And that’s the point.
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes

      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

        Therefore you cannot prove the killer took them

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk
        And you can’t prove that he didn’t.

        You’re the one with the theory Trevor. You’re the one making the claim. The burden of proof lies with you and you can’t prove it. It’s impossible to do so. And yet you appear to be claiming that it’s proven.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes

        “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

          Hi Herlock,

          Seems we're talking at cross purposes. I was referring to Calder and Harrison. I rewatched the video and they were talking about 9 minutes.

          Cheers, George
          Hello George,

          No problem.
          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes

          “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

            I was answering your question with ‘wouldn’t the missing uterus have been visible by simply looking into the abdomen' at the crime scene when the intestines were not obscuring the view?
            I’m not sure about this one George. I was just wondering if it would have been virtually unmissable with an open abdomen. Perhaps it wouldn’t have been and of course the loose intestines could have obscured the view. That said, if Phillips was checking for similarities with the Chapman murder it would have been a work of seconds to have checked. With no further details we have no way of knowing of course.
            Regards

            Sir Herlock Sholmes

            “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

              Your sequencing doesn't fit the testimony at the inquest.
              Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body.

              Chandler left 376H in charge, with the mortuary keeper in a locked shed, but when the nurses arrived the body was in the yard. There was some monkey business going on here, but that doesn't prove the same thing happened with Eddowes body.
              No argument from me there George. Can you post that quote about the nurses again please.
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes

              “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                I was just wondering if it would have been virtually unmissable with an open abdomen.
                Would it have been virtually unmissable with an open abdomen at Mitre Square? With no intestines in the way?
                “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                Comment


                • The problem with this theory is not one doctor, policeman or official was suspicious that the organs were taken from the.mortuary due to illegal trade.Not one newspaper report that said organs were being procured illegally at the Whitechapel,Golden Lane or Shoreditch mortuaries around 1888 or even a decade before and after.Show one please,where?
                  Just to throw a generality that there was some illegal trade in around 1888 is not enough,it's so flimsy.
                  Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced,it started civil society).
                  M. Pacana

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Varqm View Post
                    The problem with this theory is not one doctor, policeman or official was suspicious that the organs were taken from the.mortuary due to illegal trade.Not one newspaper report that said organs were being procured illegally at the Whitechapel,Golden Lane or Shoreditch mortuaries around 1888 or even a decade before and after.Show one please,where?
                    Just to throw a generality that there was some illegal trade in around 1888 is not enough,it's so flimsy.
                    I agree. Just showing that the trade existed isn’t enough.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes

                    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      Would it have been virtually unmissable with an open abdomen at Mitre Square? With no intestines in the way?
                      Maybe George, but no one specifically mentions this so there’s no way of knowing.

                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes

                      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                      Comment


                      • Found the quote:

                        Chandler "said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police".

                        "Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table. She was directed by Inspector Chandler to undress it, and she placed the clothes in a corner."
                        "Inspector Chandler
                        : I did not instruct the nurses to undress the body and to wash it"
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes

                        “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                        Comment


                        • So Chandler arrived at 7.00 (possibly with PC 376H in tow) Robert Mann received the body so he was there when they arrived. Chandler left but the PC stayed with Mann and the body. The mortuary was then locked until the nurses came - Mann must have let them in.

                          The nurses say that the body was on an ambulance in the yard when they arrived though. Then it was taken inside. Chandler said that he didn’t tell the nurses to undress the body.

                          Its all slightly vague isn’t it? Either it’s just unclearly reported or someone is misremembering or telling porkies. The nurses appear to be saying that they were there before Mann.

                          Clear as mud George.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes

                          “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                          Comment


                          • Maybe……..as the body was already there when Chandler arrived could it be possible that the nurses had already been there but finding the body and no one to let them in they went somewhere (could they have gone looking for Mann or another attendant to let them in?) then returned by which time Mann had arrived and taken the body inside? Without turning this into an Agatha Christie this little mystery could prove unsolvable George.
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes

                            “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              And you can’t prove that he didn’t.

                              You’re the one with the theory Trevor. You’re the one making the claim. The burden of proof lies with you and you can’t prove it. It’s impossible to do so. And yet you appear to be claiming that it’s proven.
                              The overall facts and evidnce when assesed and evaluated allow us to draw a proper inference as to what happened to the organs,

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Varqm View Post
                                The problem with this theory is not one doctor, policeman or official was suspicious that the organs were taken from the.mortuary due to illegal trade.Not one newspaper report that said organs were being procured illegally at the Whitechapel,Golden Lane or Shoreditch mortuaries around 1888 or even a decade before and after.Show one please,where?
                                Just to throw a generality that there was some illegal trade in around 1888 is not enough,it's so flimsy.
                                I suggest you read one of Professor Hurrens books on the activites of body and organ dealers in Whitechapel in 1888 there you will find many examples of corrupt mortuary attendants and the illict trade in bodies and organs from mortuaries.

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                                Comment

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