Eddowes Pawn Ticket/Finances (moved from another thread)

[lynn cates]

source

Hello Mike. Thanks. Can you direct me to the source for her use of "Mary Kelly"?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Frequently, terrorism has a point. The dynamite outrages all had definite points. How would Kate have assessed Polly and Annie's deaths with respect to point?

"I believe she uses the variations because she is attempting to be clever."

In my mind, the clever one is the one who survives. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Perhaps both Polly and Annie were at some point Police informants. With the Parnell Commission looking to expose the most senior Irish member of Parliament of complicity in political murders, whose to say a mandate to silence rogue witnesses was'nt under way?

The money that was being raised, by both Irish radicals and undercover Policemen make the stakes very high indeed.

On that last point, I didnt say she was clever, just that she was trying to be.

All the best LC

[Michael W Richards]

JANE KELLY, #6 DORSET STREET, LONDON
MARY ANN KELLY, FASHION STREET, LONDON

When you look at the 2 together, in their given sequence, and consider the extremely unusual and unique circumstances that link Catharine to a woman named Mary Jane Kelly of #26 Dorset Street, London,..as consecutive murders by one assumed killer..and you have a common local hangout like Crossingham's directly across the street from Mary, and how you have a mutual background involving mingling with the local Irish community,...... you have to wonder how likely this extremely odd coincidence could occur, as opposed to it being a contrived occurrence.

I suppose put simply my "spidey senses" are tingling. I believe she used the names purposefully, why, I can only speculate at this point.

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

point

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Frequently, terrorism has a point. The dynamite outrages all had definite points. How would Kate have assessed Polly and Annie's deaths with respect to point?

"I believe she uses the variations because she is attempting to be clever."

In my mind, the clever one is the one who survives. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

I still have problems with the notion of her announcing her arrival for reward money.

And I'm curious about the name. If it were borrowed from "MJK" why the Anne? But once we bring in "she just made it up" why not all of it?

Are you suggesting that she took Polly and Annie's deaths as acts of Irish terrorism?

Cheers.
LC

To your last question, yes, its possible. I can see them as terrorist acts myself, quite successful ones. Im also open to them being the only victims of a mutilator madman within the series,....but I could see a scenario where street whores, some known to be songbirds for either criminal and/or the police factions, are slaughtered by terrorists seeking to immobilize and terrorize the residents and authorities. How different is blowing innocent people to tiny wet fragments from slicing them open and spilling the contents on the street?

I believe she uses the variations because she is attempting to be clever. She could not have foreseen being booked Saturday afternoon and having to use an alias, so lets look at the name used on the pawn ticket. Jane Kelly of #6 Dorset Street. All she does by giving the name and address Saturday night of Mary Ann Kelly of Fashion Street is to provide more clues to find the person she is intending to identify. Without giving away the shop, so to speak. Who is to know whether its Mary, or Ann or Jane or the Kelly portion that is really relevant, or whether she is hinting about Dorset Street or Fashion Street, which was just a block or two away I believe.

Her alias Friday night as a standalone is almost enough for someone looking for a Mary Jane Kelly to use as a rough map. Combined with the alias Saturday night its almost a complete map...missing only the #2.

All the best Lynn.

[lynn cates]

three points

Hello Mike. Thanks.

I still have problems with the notion of her announcing her arrival for reward money.

And I'm curious about the name. If it were borrowed from "MJK" why the Anne? But once we bring in "she just made it up" why not all of it?

Are you suggesting that she took Polly and Annie's deaths as acts of Irish terrorism?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike.

"Might Kate have been selling information about this Mary Jane Kelly, and she made a figurative bread crumb trail for someone to follow if she disappeared?"

Want to flesh this out a bit? My feeling is that the trail is very incomplete.

Cheers.
LC

Heres my thought process on this possibility Lynn, ...lets say that Kate maintained regular interaction with Irish folks around the East End after Conway. Lets say that Mary Kelly also mingled with some of those same folks. Lets say Kate knew of some of the more dangerous ones, and heard about some local women that interacted with them. Like Mary Kelly.

When the killings start looking like acts of anarchy and terrorism....which I believe some were....She puts 2 and 2 together and believes she might know who is behind the crimes. And which woman might be able to track the killer down if pressured to discuss the matter. She assesses the reward money, and the possibility that the bad guys might pay more for her silence, so she arranges to meet someone through her contacts on Saturday afternoon to discuss the matter. Maybe thats what she really does Friday night.

Because she is afraid of these people, and knows its possible she might get herself in trouble, she decides to use variations of the woman's name and address on documents that the police might use later to track her down if she disappears. Through the woman whose name and address she was trying to sell. Sort of like a back-up plan...if the negotiations get dangerous she can still give the info to the Police via her bread crumb trail and maybe still collect that reward.

I figure that the information that Kate claimed to have to claim the reward might have been on a specific man, or a dangerous group of people, and her only access to them was through someone that both her and these men know of. Mary may have been an informant on either side..self rule or the police, and Kate may have known of that.

The beauty of this idea is that Kate and Mary do not have to know each other at all, Kate just needs to know OF Mary. And she has to be hustling for the most money she can get. Each seem feasible to me.

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

Happy trails to you.

Hello Mike.

"Might Kate have been selling information about this Mary Jane Kelly, and she made a figurative bread crumb trail for someone to follow if she disappeared?"

Want to flesh this out a bit? My feeling is that the trail is very incomplete.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

Interesting thought but, unless it is coincidence, it would mean that Eddowes not only knew the identity of the killer, but also who he was going to target next (or next but one) - which seems unlikely.

Hi Bridewell,

There are a great many things one might consider if the premise that the choice of aliases reveals Kate's knowledge of a Mary Jane Kelly living on Dorset, not the least of which is might Kate have been murdered due to a misidentification for one Mary Kelly?

If the killer thought he was killing Mary Kelly of Dorset, and if she is given any copies of her arrest information when she was released, he might be convinced by the pawn ticket name and her arrest name that he had the right Dorset Street woman, ... though she coyly had mixed up some details.

Might Kate have been selling information about this Mary Jane Kelly, and she made a figurative bread crumb trail for someone to follow if she disappeared?

There are striking similarities in these last 2 murders, in the same way the first 2 murders resemble each other but not the others, it wouldnt be a surprise to me personally if a personal knowledge of each other was present...more than likely due to the Irish influences on both sides. Kates former lover Conway was Irish I believe.

Cheers BW

[lynn cates]

well done

Hello Debs. Thanks. Finding his death record is big news--in itself.

Well done! Look forward to your summary.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. I say, that IS complicated.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
Is it?
I am just suggesting that John Kelly may not have been 'married' to a woman named Mary Ann before he took up with Eddowes and therefore his ex and Eddowes weren't living at the same address in 88 either, as has been mentioned on this thread.
I've got a bit more research to do on this and will maybe write something when I've done.
Anyway, I am pretty sure that I have found John Kelly's last entry in the Whitechapel infirmary and date of death now, if nothing else.

[Paddy]

Please dont tell me its censii, I cant spell !

Pat........................

[Paddy]

For anyone with ancestry

There is a public tree for Catherine Eddowes. There is a photo that is not verified, plus most census's
also a tree of Liz Stride where photo seems adjustment of her death picture to show what she would look like in life Its pretty good.
I am not sure that the real photos are who they say they are though.
Pat

[lynn cates]

pronunciation

Hello Dave. Thanks. Yes, yours is the version I am used to (if it was pronounced properly--old folks).

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

(Swoon) I think I love you....no that's reserved for Debs...

Every good wish

Dave