Eddowes in Kent

[Jeff Leahy]

Yes interesting Sara

I have know idea what sort of traffic these roads had or what length journeys could be made by cart.

Its always puzzled me why Kate and Kelly went to Maidstone after Hunton given they had earned no money and London is in the opposite direction. Perhaps they simply tumbed a lift.

I plan to chase the Hunton historian in the New Year.

I gather that there was a work house at Cox Heath. Also that Hunton was a very tight nit community and not a major destination for Hop Pickers at that time. He had also discovered one person with links to teh Eastend.

Catch you all later

Pirate

[Sara]

The answer lays there somewhere. Catford and Lewisham are much closer to London than Hunton...

Blackheath lies on the A2..so I presume they would have walked that way..
But its a long long way..Any volunteers for a reconstruction?

Pirate XXX

When I was young - in the 60s - I hitchhiked around places like Greece and Spain which were still very primitive peasant societies then, outside the cities. We would often walk part of the way and be picked up for a few miles by farmers with carts - even little scooter-powered carts, but also donkey or horse carts. Or sometimes guys with pick-ups would stop and pick up anyone walking or hitching. So few people had transport, it was normal to help those who didn't

I wouldn't be surprised if walkers weren't regularly picked up in Victorian times and carried on a few miles by eg farmers on their way home from market with empty carts etc; esp so on the 'hop routes' between Kent and London

[Sara]

Simon, there are many connective tissues at work here, there was even a Thomas Cutbush, 'hop porter' of Newington; and the Cutbush family certainly had land and properties in Kent connected to the hop trade; as well of course as running the local Maidstone press; and being entirely responsible for the peace of justice in the locale.

When Eddowes came back from Kent claiming to know the identity of the Whitechapel Murderer, I have always thought she picked the wrong hop down there, and paid her price.

I've never read that before, so much to read up on!
that's an amazingly 'pregnant' bit of information...

[Roy Corduroy]

Hello? Well I've done some research on drinking. Two words keep coming up, gin and beer, which brings us back to hops. Simon, this thread is fun and informative too. Anyone espied Pirate on the hop horizon? Roy

Oast houses were used to dry hops. The hops were heated from below and the moisture escaped from the 'bells' at the top. The wind turned the 'vanes' which placed the vent holes 'downwind' allowing the damp air to be sucked out.

Inside of oast house bell looking up.

[Roy Corduroy]

She returned and went drinking. Were cocktails served on ice back then? Did they drink the liquor straight or mixed?

Roy

[Monty]

This may have been the reason why Eddowes apron was filthy.

She hadnt the time or the funds to launder it.

Monty

[Bob Hinton]

Radio 4 Programme

Fascinating progamme on Radio 4 on Thursday (9/10/08) about hop picking. Made me think of poor Catherine Eddowes.

Did you know picking hops turned your fingers green?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/opencountry.shtml

[anna]

Hi Pirate,
Hmm...it's a"no thanks" on the offer of the reconstruction.....tempting though!!!
A small thought......I can remember my nan talking about this,and it appears to check out on the hopping sites.
Evidently,if they were regular hoppers,the farmer sent them a letter with a train ticket inside,as part of the "deal" of being hired.There were "hopping trains" that left London Bridge to convey these regulars out to Kent.
I wonder if this would have applied to Kate,and she sold their tickets???
Just a thought.
ANNA.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Anna

Yes it would explain much, but we are a long way from proving a connection.

I'm hoping that we can trace family members of one of the three Hop farms.

Buston, Stonewall or clockhouse

The answer lays there somewhere. Catford and Lewisham are much closer to London than Hunton...

Blackheath lies on the A2..so I presume they would have walked that way..

But its a long long way..Any volenteers for a reconstruction?

Pirate XXX

[anna]

Hi Pirate,
Lee is in the Catford/Lewisham area on the Blackheath line...the trains stop at Lewisham...Catford and Lee are a stonesthrow away.Lee Terrace is a very well known place.

I forget that there were small hop farms.When you mention hop farm,my mind assocaites that with the Whitbread Hop Farm at Paddock Wood.Which is huge...I have actually done a boot sale there,working under the hop cages with the hops hanging down over the side.I arrived there at 4am,there was a mist covering the main building and these big silver gates with a phone/entry system.I pressed the button and this big booming voice said..Yes?like Lurch..my little quaking voice said..."Can I come in????"...priceless.
I have a Victorian group photo of women hop picking in Kent..it has the name of the hop farm on a chalked board next to them.

I think this suggestion may also explain how Kate happened to have money for that snazzy new coat she happened to pick up on the way back.....we were all wondering where she got the cash from...perhaps this has provided us with the answer.....would be just like Kate to find a mate to provide her with scraps,but come back in style!!!!
ANNA.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Captain

You've now left me asking more questions. What happened to the child..where in Gillingham? (where my partners parents live by chance?)

Was this Chatham/ Gillingham connection (Via East Farleigh) the main route towards Hunton in 1888? (ie Whitechappel-A2-Chatham-EastFarleigh-Hunton)

And how do you know they got cheap accomadation?

We havn't even pin pointed the exact Hop farm yet...

Still thank you for your leads..any more info I can give my historian would be appreciated..

In return I will see what I can dig up on O'hara..give me a couple of days

Yo Ho Ho

Pirate

[Cap'n Jack]

In 1883 an Eliza White gave birth to a child in Chatham Workhouse, and the same woman was living in Gillingham, Kent in 1891...
My sauces have their caps on tonight.
Despite there being no hop crop that year in Kent, the hop farms still offered very viable and cheap accommodation for the summer.

[Jeff Leahy]

Help required Kent

Hello Casebook

I have received a reply from David my Hutton historian who has turned up some interesting information. Given Cathrines long stay in the area with little work, David has been working on the idea that Catherine may have known someone in the area.

The only possibility to date is an Eliza White. Here is his reply in full:

Jeff, Sorry for not replying earlier, I did leave a message on the answer
phone about a week ago.I have had a look through the census records for Hunto for 1881 and 1891; I think I have been able to identify the hop farms he could have worked on:

George White- Buston
Frederick Manwaring-Stonewall
William H Hubble-Clockhouse

I also looked through the 1891 census for the places of birth for any
residents to see if it hinted at any connections, as you can imagine
most were local or Kentish, except for those who were servants at the big
houses. The only one who stood out was a Eliza White who was born in
Whitechapel in around 1848, she was a cook for Mary Bannerman at Hunton Court( she would have been the mother or aunt at a guess of Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman Liberal Prime Minister 1906-08). I found that Eliza White was a cook for a Mr Hood, a retired civil engineer at 38 Lee Terrace, Lee, London in 1881. So if my geography of London is not too bad,that is still not to far away from Whitechapel. Could Catherine Eddowes have known Eliza, which could be why she came to Hunton and stayed for so long when the hop crop was so bad?

Eliza may have been a source of food, but this would not have been
admitted it would have been pilfered. Bit of a longshot but it does seem to be the only connection with Hunton that I could find as a first glance.Maybe
she had connections via other aquaintances in London.

I will keep you posted if anything else comes to mind.

Regards
David

If anyone has any thoughts or ideas on this information I would be most grateful...the name 'White' does ring some bells somewhere..and obviously Catherine had a sister Eliza (but that would be coincidence)

However the idea that Cathrine had a connection to Hunton other than Hop picking is an interesting one..what do you think Anna?

Anyway any help much appreciated

Yours Pirate

[anna]

Trust the editing to tell everyone that I had to call it back,because I'm not awake enough yet,and signed it twice!

[anna]

Hi Jeff,
Gerry did a driving job which covered the Maidstone area.It wasn't usual for me to tag along,so to his amazement,I was ready to leave before he was!!!!
We visited many villages in the area,and when I got excited as I saw the signpost for the Hunton area,Gerry turned the van in the opposite direction!
Anyway,we spent time in the huge high street area...boy,the shops!!!!
We had lunch,and wandered around.I found the most amazing second hand book shop,which spanned about three floors absolutely crammed full of just about every topic of book you could think of.Luckily for me,they had a section where they had a couple of books on Dylan..so while Gerry was stuck there,I had a wander around and found a section on local history with some very old books indeed.I was hoping for one with some pictures of hopping in the area around 1888,or high street shops of the time...when the guy said he might be able to help me...Gerry shouted...the parking meter's running out,and I had to run!Grrrrrrr
Anyway,I hope to return to the area. (I live on the borders of Welling,
Kent...in a place called Plumstead... Wickham Lane ...where Kate Bush comes from!A few minutes one way from my house is the direction towards Blackheath(Druitt) and in the other is the main route to Kent).I am about half hour away from Maidstone..so hoping Gerry will take me back,as I would love to see what delights I could find amongst all of those books!!!!!
I can't wait to see what this guy from Hunton will come up with.
I was wondering if anyone has ever discovered the name of the place where Kate picked hops,and not just the name of the village?

Catch you later,
ANNA.