Friday 28th Sept. 1888 Shoe Lane Casual Ward

[The Rookie Detective]

Bearing in mind that Eddowes & Kelly had been in Kent hop-picking for most, if not all, of September, it seems likely that she was not as up-to-date with developments as she would have been had they remained in Whitechapel. The papers had been full of articles about the search for 'Leather Apron'. It seems quite possible that she simply knew him to be John Pizer, and didn't realise that this was old news. Did she go to the police station on Commercial Street, find out that what she thought she knew was in fact worthless, and go on a bender rather than return to Kelly with the bad news?

Interesting hypothesis and I think it may have some traction.


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all, Kelly seems very upset the night he discovers Kate's been a victim.Yet his previous movements don't seem to match.He has asked her to return at a certain time,and states his fears about the Ripper when they part.Yet he makes no recorded effort to go to find her when she's late returning.Nor does he go to the police station to ask if she might be released and if he can collect her.He leaves it all to chance?
Then,she thinks she knows who the murderer is,yet she doesn't confide in Kelly?Despite the fact that they walk all the way back from Kent,no doubt chatting as they walk along,yet being a bit gossipy and having a suspicion that could make them both a bit of money,she keeps it to herself.Even if he had thought she wasn't correct, and it was a silly suspicion,would he not have mentioned it to the police after her murder,when interviewed? Just can't see in this couples situation,doing everyday things together and regarded themselves as man and wife,that Kate,even if she had thought it was silly,didn't run it by him,even just to see his reaction.Unless,of course,for some reason she didn't trust him with the information.

Or unless she thought John Kelly was the Ripper

RD

[Bridewell]

Bearing in mind that Eddowes & Kelly had been in Kent hop-picking for most, if not all, of September, it seems likely that she was not as up-to-date with developments as she would have been had they remained in Whitechapel. The papers had been full of articles about the search for 'Leather Apron'. It seems quite possible that she simply knew him to be John Pizer, and didn't realise that this was old news. Did she go to the police station on Commercial Street, find out that what she thought she knew was in fact worthless, and go on a bender rather than return to Kelly with the bad news?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Everybody
Kate had already been up before the beak for being drunk and disorderly at least once before.Its a well known fact that people like John and Kate,living on the margins of society,virtually as outcasts from it,dont usually chime all that well with the local police.So I dont find it unusual that John steered clear.He allegedly knew where she was because of the old lady in the lane -- whoever she was---and probably from one or two other sources and as he himself said he thought that at least she had a bed for the night----which ofcourse she didnt as she was let out at 1.am.---which he had not expected to happen.
Its a good point that about Petticoat Lane,Jon, it is possible she had been to Petticoat Lane during the day as its the next street East of Houndsditch.Ideal to do a spot of "hawking".I know Albert Bachert said he had seen a middle aged,shabbily dressed woman trying to sell matches had come into the Three Nuns Hotel in Aldgate" ,next to Aldgate Station,the night of the 29th September ----it was around midnight.Bachert stated later that she moved from customer to customer trying to sell the matches and that a man had asked him about the women who hung around the pub and wondered whether such women would object to going down Northumberland Alley off Fenchurch Street with men[this was a dark and lonely court]. He left soon after,giving the woman some money and they appeared to go off together.[this was probably before Kate was let out].He was well dressed and carried a black bag.



Observer,
I hadnt thought of that but its quite true,given how desperate she was that day perhaps she went to ask her daughters ex neighbours if any of them had an address.

Anna,
I think Kate might well have concealed an intention to go hunting for the Ripper from her partner.He would surely not have been too happy about her
planning such a dangerous thing...........

[The Grave Maurice]

Unless,of course,for some reason she didn't trust him with the information.

Hmmm...wait a minute. I seem to be getting an idea for a book. I can see the cover now...John the Ripper. Excuse me, I'll be back in a couple of months with a first draft.

[Observer]

Hi

With regard to Kelly, and being totally fair to him, he did say that Eddowes was going to try and find her daughter in Bermondsey, the operative word here being try. I have no reason to doubt his integrity. It could well be thast Eddowes might not have known the exact address of her daughter, but intended to try and find her on the streets. Iv'e done a similar thing in the past.

Observer

[anna]

Hi all, Kelly seems very upset the night he discovers Kate's been a victim.Yet his previous movements don't seem to match.He has asked her to return at a certain time,and states his fears about the Ripper when they part.Yet he makes no recorded effort to go to find her when she's late returning.Nor does he go to the police station to ask if she might be released and if he can collect her.He leaves it all to chance?
Then,she thinks she knows who the murderer is,yet she doesn't confide in Kelly?Despite the fact that they walk all the way back from Kent,no doubt chatting as they walk along,yet being a bit gossipy and having a suspicion that could make them both a bit of money,she keeps it to herself.Even if he had thought she wasn't correct, and it was a silly suspicion,would he not have mentioned it to the police after her murder,when interviewed? Just can't see in this couples situation,doing everyday things together and regarded themselves as man and wife,that Kate,even if she had thought it was silly,didn't run it by him,even just to see his reaction.Unless,of course,for some reason she didn't trust him with the information.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

How new were John Kelly's new boots?

Would he have walked thirty five miles from Kent to London in brand new boots?

Regards,

Simon

[Jon Guy]

Edward McKenna

Hello again,

Someone who had also been hop picking was Edward McKenna, whose name appears here and there in the Ripper story, and in my minds eye, appears similar to Mr Blotchy in appearance, scruffy local with yellow hair and sunburnt face.

Perhaps, McKenna aroused Kate`s suspicions ?

[Jon Guy]

Hello Natalie, all

When Kelly was asked how he knew Kate had being arrested in Aldgate he said that the old woman from the "lane" told him.
Was the "lane", Petticoat Lane, around the corner from where Kate was found drunk ?
Perhaps, she had spent the day around the market in the "lane", hawking as she does ?

[Supe]

Monty,

...I hate you.

Thanks--or haven't you noticed there are enough people around here who feel that way already? I spend half my time ducking brick-bats as it is--and I know you can throw well.

Don..

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Mitch ,
I agree with most of what you say,to be honest.Mind I dont think they were there more than a fortnight actually.Will check it out tomorrow.
Also -if she did think she knew him----she certainly found him! and she must have moved a lot faster than PC Watkins that night!

That was a good response Don. But I thought Sams confirmation of the idea that these two were perhaps committed to being together each night is a potentially powerful statement that they likely worked at that habit...either together, or they relied on the other to raise the doss.

The jacket and boots seem particularly frivolous considering the supposed yield that year, and for folks that ensured some money was for their bed together.

Heres another thought...aren't boots kind of important in East End London..vs.... perhaps a black crepe evening jacket? Which one would most couples pawn first? Maybe John didn't need to go to market, and maybe boots, at the time, were something they thought they could replace easily...perhaps the jacket was a bit more "rare"...a unique style she liked, and would have a hard time finding another like it. And the pawn money is divied up without a care in the world who was going to cover bed Saturday night.

Don...the best way I can describe my hunch here is a down on his luck guy borrowing money for a horse race he thinks he knows the winner of, with no thought as to what comes after that if he doesnt win.

Cheers Don, all.

[Natalie Severn]

Don,
...........nout to do with "fiscal planning"---or a mysterious" mindset" belonging specifically to the "poor"-
what did Keats say? give me women, wine and snuff till I cry out stop ---enough!
same sort of spirit as the poets----claret....thats all!
Cheers
Nats

[Mitch Rowe]

Natalie,
Hi.. I think it is all too easy to read storys like that or notice that Kate gives her name as Mary Kelly and then start reading more into it than there probably is.
Kate ended up dead. So if she thought she knew who JTR was she was probably wrong.
Personally..My gut instinct on the whole Kate affair is that she never said such a thing and she probably never realized the danger she was in.
Maybe if she had never went hopping she would have experienced the terror in a more at home level and changed her habits for a while and thereby saving her own life.
Also my gut instinct tells me that Kate is probably the most randomly picked victim of them all.
I think if I were Kate and I heard about the Murders while hopping and I even thought I knew the guy. I would choose to spend my time in another city for awhile until Police catch the guy.