Is Eddowes demise the key?

[Henry Flower]

Ha! Simon - Strauss's Death & Tr. was an absolute favourite of the teenaged Henry Flower. I'm so glad you ... enjoyed? - it!

You'll recover. Honestly. Pills and Mantovani. Everything will be fine.

Best.

[Henry Flower]

DVV I do know what you mean - there is a superb sense of momentum and inevitability in Karajan's 4th (especially the finale I find), something that some other conductors - even some fine ones - lose, due to the slightly odd architecture of the piece. But he really nails it. Glad to know you love the music!

Remind me - when did Schumann's breakdown begin? Did he ever visit London? Specifically.... Spitalfields...?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Henry,

Suicides, eh? Now you're talking.

The latest on my pile of must-listen CDs was Richard Strauss - Metamorphosen, plus Death and Transfiguration. Berlin Philharmonic, Von Karajan.

I'm still recovering.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

How nice to meet a man of taste. Have the Rheinish by Karajan only, and will certainly look forward to Giulini.
I know there is this moment in the 4th where Fürtwangler is unsurpassable, but Karajan versions (I have two) are aaarfff.....dunno in English...I'd just say he loved the 4th as much as Fürtwangler.

[Henry Flower]

Simon - my pleasure.

Re the number of killers, time will tell. Who knows - we might both be wrong, they might be the five strangest suicides in history.

Best wishes,

HF

[Henry Flower]

DVV - my goodness you have an impressively open mind. You've listened to the apocalyptic Schumann 4 of Furtwangler, yet you can still listen to recordings of the work by other conductors!! I wish I had that breadth of spirit!

Another wonderful Schumann disc, to my mind, is Giulini's No. 3 'Rhenish' with (oddly) the L.A. Phil, on DG. It's bursting with life and energy.

[Henry Flower]

Lynn - I can't argue with what you say - but deep down I hope that I'm arriving at a paradigm via an honest appraisal of the facts, rather than vice-versa. As we all do! Yes, even you, perhaps! In truth, though I ultimately disagree with you and with Phil Carter on this particular issue, I do also genuinely appreciate the attention to fine detail that characterises your approach.

Cheers Lynn. (Ps - how did you know I'm sometimes a 'Michael'? Did I inadvertantly let that slip?)

[DVV]

I shall lend an ear to Beethoven's Diabelli Variations. Thank you for the recommendation.
Simon

Hello Simon, it works also with Schumann's 4th. Try the scherzo by Fürtwangler, Karajan and Bernstein.
So different. Still, the most infectious music ever.

D'après Debussy, la fée du bon goût n'avait pas été invitée au mariage de Beethoven.

Meilleurs voeux mon cher.

[DVV]

Hi Errata

I'm not saying that Liz Stride was not killed by the Ripper. I tend to think she wasn't, but clearly I don't know.

That Stride and Eddowes died from the same hand is crystal-clear.
Maybe this man wasn't the ripper (wait, Lynn, just for the sake of comparison), but that he killed both that night, no doubt.

[Errata]

Again, if this one-off killer was so good at his trade, why did he not do a bit of impromptu abdominal slashing and rummaging to make it look like the fiend's work? Maybe he was interrupted.... ahem.

Love,

Caz
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Maybe because he wasn't thinking about trying to frame anyone else? Other people were murdered during during the autumn of 1888 and no one tried to copy Jack the Ripper to throw off suspicion. If we say that Liz Stride could not have been killed by someone other than Jack the Ripper because someone other than Jack the Ripper would have tried to frame Jack the Ripper, then we would have to conclude that Jack the Ripper could have been responsible for every other murder that autumn. Someone who had been beaten to death would have been killed by Jack the Ripper, because the murderer did not use a knife and try to frame Jack the Ripper.

I'm not saying that Liz Stride was not killed by the Ripper. I tend to think she wasn't, but clearly I don't know. I'm saying there is no obvious reason to assume she was killed by the Ripper, other than than the timing of her death. Which to me is not enough to build a theory around.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Henry,

By all means let's re-valuate the word theory. Even I agree that your multi-multiple-mutilators all obligingly starting and stopping at the same time needs to lie down in a dark room and get over itself.

I shall lend an ear to Beethoven's Diabelli Variations. Thank you for the recommendation.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

Hello David. I am suggesting that, amongst other things, that Polly and Annie's throats were cut deeper and harder that Liz's or Kate's.

LC

That's not a reply, Lynn, rather a tendentious and watered down reformulation of my question. Why that ?

The question is : do you consider that the way their throats were cut makes a significant difference suggesting two different killers ?

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello David. I am suggesting that, amongst other things, that Polly and Annie's throats were cut deeper and harder that Liz's or Kate's.

I find the sum total of differences striking. Always have--even when I believed in "Jack." (I used to shrug my shoulders, however.)

But your idea about exiting the thread is well timed. Permit me to walk out with you and observe, "It seems there were two Aggies who walked into a bar and . . ."

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

They need you so badly in Quantico

4. Throat cuts to Polly and Annie deeper than to Kate.
LC

Hi Lynn. That's what I was commenting on, as you very well understood.

What I want to make sure is that : Are you really telling us that the way they had their throat cut makes a significant difference that suggests two different killers ?
Just be kind enough to confirm this, please, and I'll stop posting on this thread, for there is obviously no need to argue against such a stunning idea.

[caz]

I mean, we don't know the motives of any of these murders, but clearly whoever killed Eddowes and Chapman had some business they needed to attend to in these poor women's abdomens. Nichols is odd as well. But Stride just had her throat cut. And for all we know that all her killer was ever going to do to her. I mean, if we knew that Stride's killer intended to rummage about in her bits, and if we knew that her murderer was interrupted, then yes. It is vanishingly unlikely that two killers were at play that night.

So if Stride's one-off killer had only thought to slash at her abdomen a bit, to make it look like the work of Nichols's and Chapman's killer, all the doubters would now be saying it was vanishingly unlikely that two killers were 'at play' that night? I'm sorry, but that just shows up the weakness of the argument to me.

But we don't know that. For all we know she turned down a John who took it very very poorly. Or some drunk thought she was his wife and he killed her for whoring. Or space aliens came down and killed her to retrieve their anal probe. I mean, who knows? Granted, we will never know what Jack the Ripper's intent was. I mean, if he could pick anyone and had unlimited time and resources, we don't know what he would have done and to whom. But we do know that he was desperately interested in the abdominal cavity, and we know that by what he did to abdominal cavities. But nothing was done to Stride's body. We can't say that it is more likely that JtR killed her and was interrupted than that she was killed by someone else entirely. Had she been garotted or shot we could say with reasonable certainty, or if there had been the beginning of an incision, or even if she had been laid out with her skirts hiked up. But evidently someone jerked her back by her neck scarf, cut her throat quite expertly, dropped her and left her to die.

I don't see the problem here. We know of someone who had very recently inflicted two fatal throat cuts on two women he had encountered late at night. He has to be the prime suspect unless or until someone else comes along who had the right expertise and a reason for wanting this penniless unfortunate woman dead, but no other.

And while the law of averages would state that only one killer was abroad that night, the throat cut of Liz Stride would lead me to believe otherwise. It's perfect. It's clean and precise. No ragged edges, no hacking or sawing away at the neck, no overly powerful strokes. Severs the important structures in one smooth motion. He doesn't nearly decapitate her, he makes no false starts, one stroke, one clean kill. Now, if through practice Jack the Ripper had gotten that good at throat cutting, why does he continue to make such a hash of it? I mean, my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone elses, but despite the fact it would be very unusual for more than one killer to have been out there, that's what it looks like to me.

Again, if this one-off killer was so good at his trade, why did he not do a bit of impromptu abdominal slashing and rummaging to make it look like the fiend's work? Maybe he was interrupted.... ahem.

I suggest that Stride's killer quickly realised this wasn't the right time or place to be hanging around rummaging, and this made him so angry that he took it out on her by cutting her throat sharpish and scarpering - most probably in a Mitre Square direction.

He could probably be quite nice to the ladies when he was getting it all his own way. Horrid when the fates conspired against him.

Love,

Caz
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