Is Eddowes demise the key?

[Henry Flower]

Mr Wagstaff (I do hope that's simply crude innuendo by the way), that's all very admirable, but nothing drains the fun out of assininity like receiving undeserved courtesy and respect.

[D.B.Wagstaff]

I think much of the problem is many of us are looking at all kinds of different variables and trying to compare apples and oranges. Consequently, threads start out fairly conscise and narrow of scope, then widen to the point of losing focus.

For example, some of us are focused on the cause of death itself, while others are looking at post-mortem mutilations or the lack thereof. Some are trying to explain why there may be differences between the crimes, while others focus on similarity. Which witnesses, reports, writings do we give creedence? Do we try to apply common sense to what Jack may or not have been thinking and doing? The questions go on and on.

The end result is, inevitably, a lack of consensus in what the evidence means - even what the evidence is - because we don't have enough information to form very many solid conclusions.

And all of this is OK, so long as we all admit we what we don't know along with stating what we know (or think we know), and debate the possibilities with a sense of humor and a healthy amount of respect for those we disagree with . . . no matter how assinine they are! LOL!

[Henry Flower]

The stuff that did happen did actually happen, whereas stuff that would've had different connotations had it happened differently or not happened at all, well, it didn't happen those ways. It happened the way it happened. Stride had her throat cut ('too far south' to be a Ripper attack), and the attacker MAY have been disturbed, whereupon a Ripper killing occurred a short distance away a short time later in a location that was almost precisely as far south as the Stride killing.

Yes, if the Stride killing had happened in Basildon during the winter olympics of 1977 no-one would connect it to the Ripper killings. Fair point.

I'm not saying Stride was a Ripper victim or that she wasn't. I'm just saying that ... prostitute, throat cut, southerly location, Jew stuff written or shouted, same night... if I had to bet on it I'd be inclined narrowly to include her in.

[Hunter]

Or to put it another way, if Chapman and Eddowes has occurred a year apart the connection would still be drawn between the two cases. Had Chapman and Stride occurred a year apart, no connection would be made. Rightly or wrongly.

I understand you're point Errata, but Coles was and still is considered by many to be a possible victim of the same killer who may have murdered some or all of the others. Her assailant was almost caught; PC Thompson arriving on the scene in time to hear retreating footsteps and to see poor Francis' life extinguish before his eyes. Someone who kills on the streets like that could be interrupted on more than one occasion. There were phenomenal risks involved in these murders that has to make one take notice; especially when no killer is brought to justice despite it... not one.

I'm not saying that I know who or how many individuals killed any of these women. But the whole series is remarkable for some reason and there are undenialble clues that evidence a possible link. Any modern investigation would certainly consider a serial murderer involved. The torso murders are of a different vein because these women were killed by someone who had some measure of security and a sense of vulnerability. Plus, that type of murder had been going on for a very extended time.

The Rotherhithe murder - which I mentioned before- was even speculated as being a 'Ripper Crime' until the actual murderer was apprehended... and this was in 1893 on the souith side of the Thames and only her throat was cut.

[DVV]

Hello Errata.

"Had Chapman and Stride occurred a year apart, no connection would be made. Rightly or wrongly."

Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

More precisely it occurred within 3 weeks in the same area.

[lynn cates]

No connection for the dots.

Hello Errata.

"Had Chapman and Stride occurred a year apart, no connection would be made. Rightly or wrongly."

Precisely!

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Errata, your post makes no sense at all.

[Errata]

Good grief, all Phil had to do was whisper 'many', and now it's a 'whole bunch' of women who apparently ended up like Stride, but were just 'the nebulous background' of daily life in Whitechapel 6 months prior to the fast becoming mythical 'Autumn of Terror'. So nebulous that people must have been stepping over female bodies like so much pony dung.

Love,

Caz
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Not at all. But there are a dozen or so other victims of vaguely similar attacks on the alleged ripper victim page, the torso murders, and obvious victims of robberies involving knife wounds all in a span of a few years. Never mind some of the other spectacular and unspectacular ways that women died in the slums, many whose names we don't know because either they weren't identified or they got no press.
Liz Stride simply had her throat cut. Which is a tragedy, but does not on the surface make her a victim of a serial killer who distinguishes himself by opening abdomens. I have never heard anyone suggest that she was a victim of the torso killer that was interrupted for example. It's the timing that makes her death mysterious.
Or to put it another way, if Chapman and Eddowes has occurred a year apart the connection would still be drawn between the two cases. Had Chapman and Stride occurred a year apart, no connection would be made. Rightly or wrongly.

[Monty]

Forgive me, I'm just a dumbass.

The key to what?

Monty

[lynn cates]

anomalies

Hello Cris. If this were to have happened in the last half century or so, I'd look for a sexual serial killer first. After all, some of them--as Peter Kurten (forgive my absent umlaut)--admitted to having read about "JTR" and having been inspired thereby.

But I have always wondered whether "JTR" were inspired by someone, if so, whom? As you say, he has no antecednts. Of course, anything is possible.

Quite frankly, if not for certain anomalies--as most of John Kelly's testimony and the complete zero in MJK research--I might still look for this one chap who is targeting women. But, given those anomalies, I begin to smell a rat.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

If Catherine Eddowes is the key, it is as such that her killer placed some kind of significance on the female uterus; knew where it was and how to extract it... and was willing to take extraordinary risks to do it and the other things done to a poor woman who, otherwise, would have gone unnoticed by nearly all of society.

Same with Annie Chapman's murderer; same with Mary Kelly's murderer... And none of this had ever been done before in all of England, let alone an area that you can walk through in short notice... and it was all done in short notice. Yet the thought of a sexual serial killer being responsible isn't even sensible? The other theories are more plausible?

What are the names of the other unfortunates who were killed in the East End in the immediate years prior to or after the Whitechapel Murders who had their throats cut or genitals targeted and left where they were killed? I can think of only one.. and that was the Rotherhithe murder in 1893, across the river, south of Wapping. And her killer was apprehended.

[lynn cates]

population sample

Hello Caroline. Funny, I was to ask the same.

Yes, I found that age. But what about 16 and 17? Why not 14 and 15? What is the cutoff age, and why? And why females and not males? A young boy was opened up in a fashion similar to Kate--this was in November or December. Why does he not count?

My whole point is, there were many knife killings in 1888, in London and in England as a whole. Now one may artificially restrict the population sample in any way one pleases, and skew the results as much as one likes. But that procedure does not breed confidence.

By the way, my offer still stands--I should be delighted to supply you with "Lloyd's Weekly" for calendar year 1888. Perhaps together we could turn up some figures?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Mr. Carter is certainly not out of his mind for seeing more than one hand at work here, and quite frankly, the only reason Stride even matters in any of these discussions is whether or not an aborted mutilation sent Jack running for Eddowes. Had she been killed the exact same way 6 months earlier, she would have blended into the nebulous background of a whole bunch of other women why had their throat cut, no matter who had killed her.

Good grief, all Phil had to do was whisper 'many', and now it's a 'whole bunch' of women who apparently ended up like Stride, but were just 'the nebulous background' of daily life in Whitechapel 6 months prior to the fast becoming mythical 'Autumn of Terror'. So nebulous that people must have been stepping over female bodies like so much pony dung.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caroline. Why would the murders of 18 and 19 year olds count as child murders?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Is this a riddle? If not, what has it to do with the price of eggs?

If you have any 18 or 19 year olds to add to Colin's 'murder of females by knife in England between 1887 and 1889' stats, spit 'em out and I'll happily swallow 'em.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

A man plays golf one weekend.

The following weekend a man plays cricket.

The following weekend a man goes fishing.

Couldn't possibly be one man with three different ways of enjoying himself - could it?

I have a Tunnocks caramel wafer biscuit in front of me, waiting to be scoffed. A cup of tea's too wet without one.

Tonight I will have some salted peanuts with my Harvey Wallbanger.

Tomorrow I may have scampi, chips and peas with a pint of Tribute.

Am I the same woman? I'm confusing myself now, and it don't take much.

Joke from my childhood: Why is a chicken? Because one of its legs is both the same.

I love Henry Flower too, Monty. Hands off.

Love,

Caz
X