The Apron Again

[Rubyretro]

Why don't we all just go experiment with material and a table knife and see for ourselves?

It's pointless for us to experiment ourselves because we don't have all the elements.
For example, Catherine Eddowes most probably didn't have a brand spanking new apron, and she might well have got it from a pawn shop. it might have been very worn and the fibres very soft. For example denim is very tough
material, but when it has been washed and worn many times then you can easily rip it by hand, let alone a knife.
[QUOTE]

Of course, even if Eddowes had the means, there is the timing and so many other problems with his theory.

Forgive me for not reading back over the whole thread before replying but if the theory is still that she might have used a bit of her apron to 'wipe herself on' , then I do think that it is laughable. She seriously needed money and I can't see her destroying a good apron (even a worn one !). She was wearing no underwear, a long skirt and it was dark -I think that the logical thing would be to clean herself up with water from a fountain ! -not fabric.

As to 'menstrual blood'...she was in her mid 40s, under nourished, and an alcoholic -I seriously wonder if she still had 'periods'.

I don't think the theory can even get out of the gate for consideration.

I agree with that !

[Steve S]

Hi, Chava,
Thanks for your reply, and I had completely forgotten about John Richardson.

And Lynn, thanks for pointing out that Richardson admitted that he had later had to borrow someone else's knife to actually get the job done.

When I looked through all Eddowes' known possessions, I recognized that the table knife was the only implement that seemed to have any promise for Kate being able to cut her own apron.

However, table knives that I know have rounded tips and are not sharp, so there was no way Eddowes could have used one to either cut the material, or stab through the material to get a start to tear it.

As someone who has torn material since childhood (we used old sheets for dust rags) I know you have to get past the hem or selvage/ selvedge (British English) in order to tear the fabric. A rounded edge table knife does not have that capability. And let's not even think how a table knife would react on a patch, which is what I understand to have been cut cleanly through, leaving the edges that could be matched. I think that would be unusual even with a sharp knife. Scissors would be the ideal implement, but . . . no evidence anywhere of a pair of scissors.

When I persisted with the question of Kate's ability to cut her own apron, I hoped one of two things would happen:

1. Someone on the boards who is an expert on the LVP could tell me that what was known as a "table knife" in 1888 could actually be used for that purpose -- or NOT. I don't know about Victorian-era tableware and wasn't able to find information about it online.

Leather is such a different material from fabric, with one being stiff and the other flimsy, they would react differently to what I know as a table or butter knife. Why don't we all just go experiment with material and a table knife and see for ourselves?

Anyway, I had hoped to learn about Victorian table knives and see if there was any possibility Kate could have cut her own apron.

2. OR, I had hoped that Trevor would admit that he had focused so much on the stains on the material and concocted this entire theory without ever considering whether or not Kate had any means with which to cut her own apron.

This is what I have come to suspect.

However, I don't see Trevor ever acknowledging any weakness . . .

Of course, even if Eddowes had the means, there is the timing and so many other problems with his theory.

But I think I'm done with it. Because of the cutting issue, I don't think the theory can even get out of the gate for consideration.

Chava, Lynn, I apologize for not addressing this sooner. I have too many projects going on right now and had neglected them this weekend on this apron thing.

And Chava, like you, I have actually wondered if Jack might have lived in the Wentworth buildings and dropped the apron piece, or if he had gone in the front, and perhaps out the back on his way to where ever because there were so many police about on the streets.

So many interesting possibilities and never enough time.

Again, thanks for your reply and reminding us of Richardson.

And if someone with great knife knowledge wants to chime in, that would be great. I'm eager to learn.

As a bit of a knife person...While a table knife would indeed be round-ended and not up to the job......It was very common for knives to be ground-down for other purposes.....so while still identifiable as a table knife,it may have had a point...We've got a couple that were my Gran's!
Steve

[lynn cates]

thought experiment

Hello Velma.

"I had actually wondered if Jack might have lived in the Wentworth buildings."

Here is an interesting thought experiment that involves such a hypothesis.

1. Get a map of the Tower Hamlets area, including, of course, Aldgate and St. Georges-in-the-East.

2. Place an 'X' (or other marker) at the Wentworth buildings.

3. Now place another marker at the place of your favourite Liz sighting--many would choose the pub identified by Gardner and Best.

4. Now place yet a third marker by the IWMEC.

5. Allow the "brush off" thesis to be correct and let Liz's companion head north towards Commercial rd.

6. Next, assume the Schwartz story true, and BS man heading south where he confronts Liz.

7. Let BS man kill Liz and head towards Aldgate. Place another marker there.

8. Now have this same chap meet Kate and go with her through Church Passage into Mitre sq. where he does her to death.

9. Next, let him escape through St. James and go to a safe place for half an hour or so.

10. Let him re-emerge and head towards home, apron piece in tow.

11. Let him drop the piece at Goulston and chalk the graffito.

12. Let him enter his room and gloat over jobs well done.

13. Finally connect all the markers and give approximate times for each event, along with distances traversed.

What do you discover? See why I am not a fan of the traditional story line?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Well she had a white-handled table knife with her for a start. And if you're wondering how sharp it could be, I'd like to reference the following from John Richardson's evidence at the Annie Chapman inquest:

"Did you go into the yard? - No, the yard door was shut. I opened it and sat on the doorstep, and cut a piece of leather off my boot with an old table-knife, about five inches long."

Hi, Chava,
Thanks for your reply, and I had completely forgotten about John Richardson.

And Lynn, thanks for pointing out that Richardson admitted that he had later had to borrow someone else's knife to actually get the job done.

When I looked through all Eddowes' known possessions, I recognized that the table knife was the only implement that seemed to have any promise for Kate being able to cut her own apron.

However, table knives that I know have rounded tips and are not sharp, so there was no way Eddowes could have used one to either cut the material, or stab through the material to get a start to tear it.

As someone who has torn material since childhood (we used old sheets for dust rags) I know you have to get past the hem or selvage/ selvedge (British English) in order to tear the fabric. A rounded edge table knife does not have that capability. And let's not even think how a table knife would react on a patch, which is what I understand to have been cut cleanly through, leaving the edges that could be matched. I think that would be unusual even with a sharp knife. Scissors would be the ideal implement, but . . . no evidence anywhere of a pair of scissors.

When I persisted with the question of Kate's ability to cut her own apron, I hoped one of two things would happen:

1. Someone on the boards who is an expert on the LVP could tell me that what was known as a "table knife" in 1888 could actually be used for that purpose -- or NOT. I don't know about Victorian-era tableware and wasn't able to find information about it online.

Leather is such a different material from fabric, with one being stiff and the other flimsy, they would react differently to what I know as a table or butter knife. Why don't we all just go experiment with material and a table knife and see for ourselves?

Anyway, I had hoped to learn about Victorian table knives and see if there was any possibility Kate could have cut her own apron.

2. OR, I had hoped that Trevor would admit that he had focused so much on the stains on the material and concocted this entire theory without ever considering whether or not Kate had any means with which to cut her own apron.

This is what I have come to suspect.

However, I don't see Trevor ever acknowledging any weakness . . .

Of course, even if Eddowes had the means, there is the timing and so many other problems with his theory.

But I think I'm done with it. Because of the cutting issue, I don't think the theory can even get out of the gate for consideration.

Chava, Lynn, I apologize for not addressing this sooner. I have too many projects going on right now and had neglected them this weekend on this apron thing.

And Chava, like you, I have actually wondered if Jack might have lived in the Wentworth buildings and dropped the apron piece, or if he had gone in the front, and perhaps out the back on his way to where ever because there were so many police about on the streets.

So many interesting possibilities and never enough time.

Again, thanks for your reply and reminding us of Richardson.

And if someone with great knife knowledge wants to chime in, that would be great. I'm eager to learn.

[lynn cates]

explanation

Hello John. That's true. But perhaps you doubled back?

Cheers.
LC

[John Bennett]

Whoever killed Eddowes, whether it was Le Grand, Jack the Ripper, or John Bennett, it was not someone who was a novice to murder.

It wasn't me, honest! I was in prison in France/playing cricket/escaping to America/staying at Balmoral at the time.

[Monty]

You need to chill out life is to short go with the flow enjoy yourself nothing better for the system that to smile.

Perhaps we should form a comedy club on here and invite Messrs Begg and Evans and Fido/ Perhaps we might find that they are not gods but mere mortals with their own individual sense of humour

Bring back the "Wheeltappers and Shunters Spcial Club"

Trevor,

I agree.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Though I was the obnoxious arrogant one who resorts to personal attacks when my arguements are weak? Seems not.

You never see Evans, Begg or Fido resort to such childish antics. Its why they have respect, well one of the reasons. The other is they know what they are on about.

The fanatists amuse me.

Monty

You need to chill out life is to short go with the flow enjoy yourself nothing better for the system that to smile.

Perhaps we should form a comedy club on here and invite Messrs Begg and Evans and Fido/ Perhaps we might find that they are not gods but mere mortals with their own individual sense of humour

Bring back the "Wheeltappers and Shunters Spcial Club"

[Monty]

Well I do it because some posters on here seem to have difficulty in comprehending and understanding the content of my posts when done in normal text so I highlight it.

In your case I will use bigger print and joined up writing with pictures so at least you will be able to understand

Though I was the obnoxious arrogant one who resorts to personal attacks when my arguements are weak? Seems not.

You never see Evans, Begg or Fido resort to such childish antics. Its why they have respect, well one of the reasons. The other is they know what they are on about.

The fanatists amuse me.

Monty

[Monty]

As to the timing and other observations,itis probable that such were recorded at a later time.I doubt that each person involved stood by with a notebook in hand recording minute detail.Therefor all reports should be allowed some latitude as to the exactness of their contents.

I agree with you Harry however it must be noted that whilst waiting for Morris, Watkins checked the time by his own watch.

As a PC of some years he would have noted it, either mentally or in his notebook. Its in the regulations that if possible, times are noted or assessed to the nearest minute.

That said, how exact Watkins timepiece, or the Post Office clock, actually was?

To analyse to the exact and swear by them (seemingly when it suits in this case) is a futile act as we have no idea how exact the timepieces were.

Monty

[lynn cates]

fixing of time

Hello Harry. I agree with the possibility that times were off. And this can happen WHENEVER times were recorded/reported.

For any who argue earlier times for any event, they could have been later. But the converse also applies.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

As to the timing and other observations,itis probable that such were recorded at a later time.I doubt that each person involved stood by with a notebook in hand recording minute detail.Therefor all reports should be allowed some latitude as to the exactness of their contents.

[Supe]

Trev,

In case you have a day job, keep it rather than contemplate a career in comedy of any sort. As it is, you might for the sake of comity accede to the polite requests of many.

Don.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

How many times do you have to be asked to stop inserting your cxomments in quotation boxes?

Don.

Well I do it because some posters on here seem to have difficulty in comprehending and understanding the content of my posts when done in normal text so I highlight it.

In your case I will use bigger print and joined up writing with pictures so at least you will be able to understand

[Supe]

Trevor,

How many times do you have to be asked to stop inserting your cxomments in quotation boxes?

Don.