Striking after being seen?

[Tom_Wescott]

The Ripper was communicating something to the police, and us, but that’s not to say it was occult by any means.

Tom - how and why do you convert likelihoods, possibilities and perhapses into such unwarranted certainty

Hi Phil. I explained what I meant to Maria. I believe the cuts were intentional, and that being the case, they were a form of expression, whether they were conscious or not (and I would imagine they were). I do not mean to suggest anything Masonic, although surely you’d applaud me for my imagination if I did? Anyway, you seem to paint Jack as a simpleton flying by the seat of his pants. I don’t think someone like that could have gotten away with two murders, let alone five or more.

Hi Tom, no offense to Wicker, but I don't think this is a that new an idea, I have definitely heard it before, even Andre Chikatilo (was shot by firing squad in 1994) mutilated his first few victims and stabbed them in the eyes, it did puzzle the detectives at the time the change in MO when the bodies stopped turning up with their eyes stabbed, however when questioned Chikatilo said at first he believed that you could see the killer in the victims eyes, then he just stopped believing it, (doesn't say why) so he stopped. So even upto modern day times there was that belief there for some.

Thanks for that, Teej. I didn’t know that.

IWES?

LOL. No. I have a radical theory regarding the cuts to Eddowes’ face. It’s almost too radical for me to be convinced by it myself, but so plausible and simple it would shock you. I will NOT be putting it in my book, but plan to save it for an article or talk someday. And incidentally, my graffiti theory is that it says ‘IWMES’. Have you tried writing that fast by cursif, followed by ‘Juwes’ yet?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott 

[mariab]

closing time
Frequently, people die with their eyelids open. What if her assailant merely wished to close her eyelids and did so with the tip of his knife?

Should have put coins on them, like in From Hell. :-)
Lynn, aren't we disrespectful of the deceased here? Apologies.

[tji]

Hi Wicker

Though if Jack did murder Kelly, it begs the question why he didn't then intentionally damage her eyes.

Good point, I guess the logical answer to that would be if you believed Jtr killed them both that the damage he did do to the eyes wasn't intentional and meant nothing to him either way.

A frequent dilemma, one proposed solution might fit one murder, but apparently not the next. And some may ask why do we love this case so much....

Oh I think we will all be keeping each other company in the loony bins in a few years times, babbling away about grafitti and aprons and photos of eyes!

Tracy

[Wickerman]

I am almost sure it has been mentioned on the boards before, I have definitley had a conversation with someone about it!

I'm inclined to agree with you, the probability is more likely that it (attempted damage to the eyes) has been suggested before considering the often returning debates of 'Photographing the eyes'.

I also remember it being asked if they tried to take a photo of Mary Kelly's eyes for that reason..

Though if Jack did murder Kelly, it begs the question why he didn't then intentionally damage her eyes.

A frequent dilemma, one proposed solution might fit one murder, but apparently not the next. And some may ask why do we love this case so much....


Regards, Jon S.

[tji]

Hi Wicker

tji, not intending to answer for Tom, but I think Tom was meaning "new in Ripperology", not "new to the mind of any killer" - though you must admit Jack did preceed Chikatilo

I will admit nothing!!! Oh ok since it's you, I will admit to that
It goes to show though that it wasn't just an old fashioned misconception, even into the 1990's it was still believed by some.

Someone may have suggested that the killer stabbed at her eyes for the same reason I have, but I don't remember anyone specifically.

I am almost sure it has been mentioned on the boards before, I have definitley had a conversation with someone about it! I also remember it being asked if they tried to take a photo of Mary Kelly's eyes for that reason..and also something about a rabbit...anyone else remember, maybe an experiment with a rabbit or something?!?

I know Jimi put forward the eyes may have been knicked by the knife when they were cutting the face, but I am not sure if it had been brought forward before that. my memory isn't what it used to be no more.


Tj

[lynn cates]

closing time

Hello Jon. Frequently, people die with their eyelids open. What if her assailant merely wished to close her eyelids and did so with the tip of his knife?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

...As for the cheek/nose theory, unless the Ripper went to work with a sword and made very long strokes, I don't see it as feasible.

Tom, Eddowes did have a small face & features, not a broad face like Chapman or Turner. An 8in blade would be sufficient and the knife would have been dragged across the face to produce such damage.

Don't forget Tom, the doctor described the "triangular" cut's on each cheek as "flaps of skin". Stabbing the face with the point of a knife to produce a 'V' will not make that cut into a flap of skin. The knife must slice the skin behind the "triangle" to separate the skin from the face thereby producing a flap of skin.
However you look at the cuts across the cheeks they were produced by a slicing action.

And again, that doesn't explain the smaller, clearly intentional inverted V's.

The point of a knife with a dagger-blade could produce small 'V' impressions/cuts in the skin. The smaller 'V's could quite easily be small stabs, I'll have to enlarge another photo to get a clearer look-see.

Hi Tom, no offense to Wicker, but I don't think this is a that new an idea, I have definitely heard it before, even Andre Chikatilo

tji, not intending to answer for Tom, but I think Tom was meaning "new in Ripperology", not "new to the mind of any killer" - though you must admit Jack did preceed Chikatilo

Someone may have suggested that the killer stabbed at her eyes for the same reason I have, but I don't remember anyone specifically.

In the past the damage to the eyes has always been described as "nics to the eyelids", which leaves the reader to ponder why the killer would only mark the eyelids, "to make her look like a clown", was one suggestion.

In being very specific about the damage which was done we obscure the possible intent which may not have been to just lightly mark the eyelides but actually to slice the eyes. Being soft the eyeballs would respond to the pressure of the knife blade by flattening or deforming leaving the eyeball undamaged, dependent on the pressure applied.
So the puzzle has always been, "why did he mark the eyelids?", when his intent might have been to do greater damage. Certainly he could have thrust the knife deep into her eyes, that would have resolved the question, but he didn't so once again we are left with a host of possibilities.

Regards, Jon S.

[Abby Normal]

Want to know what he put on Eddowes face?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

IWES?

[Phil H]

I knew Glenn, actually met him once when he was living and working in the UK. He knew a lot about the Ripper and was much more of a criminologist than I.

I thought he was still around a few months back. No idea what he is doing now though. (His last post on here was 25 April 2010.

Phil

[Malcolm X]

...last 3 being STRIDE, EDDOWES, KELLY...

That's interesting, Malcolm, as I increasingly see the links between Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and perhaps Mckenzie, but nowadays am less convinced that Stride and MJK were the Ripper's work. Tabram I see as a group attack akin to that on Smith.

Phil

that member Glenn Larson ? from years ago was like you too, he had exactly the same ideas as you, no idea what happened to him.

i have to admit to being totally dumb about the other murders because i've only ever briefly looked at them, but i'm most suspicious of Mackenzie and Coles, but only from memory.

Tabram i used to say definitely wasn't, but now this looks like a very clumsy vigilante style street murder, that reminds me of Pipeman and BS, but nothing more.

all of these murders (torsos included) look like a group of street thugs, with one of these being JTR, he of course stands out from the others, the others seem to be idiots compared to him, and of these other two, one of these is maybe Pipeman.

Pipeman could be somebody like LE GRAND, but that's for somebody else to sort out

it looks like to me that JTR was friends with these guys, but wasn't always with them when killing, or they were together far more on nights when there were no murders planned.

like a bunch of football hooligans, that drink together during the week, but only fight at matches on the weekends, i dont know, it just feels like this that's all.

so whoever JTR is, he is definitely no fool and unlikely to be a 22 year old Toppy, this Toppy seems far too lightweight, i think this other GH is going to be virtually impossible to figure out.

he's somebody that others respect, he's about 30, dark and a nasty piece of work, but he is also somebody that doesn't appear to be JTR, thus he was able to fool Abberline...

this is such a confusing mess, we have Dutfields, the graffiti, then the LA DE DA Jew, whatever the case, to me it seems highly suspicious and quite obvious too, but then again it's so easy to have a favourite suspect and the easiest person to fool is always yourself...

[Phil H]

...last 3 being STRIDE, EDDOWES, KELLY...

That's interesting, Malcolm, as I increasingly see the links between Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and perhaps Mckenzie, but nowadays am less convinced that Stride and MJK were the Ripper's work. Tabram I see as a group attack akin to that on Smith.

Phil

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. I have long regarded the facial wounds to indicate, "You saw what you shouldn't have seen; you've heard what you shouldn't have heard; you've stuck your nose where it didn't belong. Now take that."

Merely theorising.

Cheers.
LC

yea maybe..... i see it as imbecilic, plus semi madness; especially MLK, but i try not to think about it too much.

he's very cold and calculating, he's also very very aware of time and the passage of time, in fact, he's got this perfectly sussed out.

he's not careless at all, he's highly street wise and aware of everything going on around him.

this is quite surprising to me, this is someone who knows the streets very well, but if he's part of a street vigilante group i'm not sure yet

.

[Malcolm X]

...we only need to know are these last 3 murders committed by JTR..... YES!

Just for clarity, Malcolm - what is the overall series you are considering here and which the "last three"?

Phil

i'm not sure about all the other murders yet, just the main 5, but i'm tending to include Tabram too.

last 3 being STRIDE, EDDOWES, KELLY, for the time being, i've never given the others much thought, but to me this is either JTR downgrading himself or another killer

[Phil H]

...we only need to know are these last 3 murders committed by JTR..... YES!

Just for clarity, Malcolm - what is the overall series you are considering here and which the "last three"?

Phil

[lynn cates]

interpretation

Hello Malcolm. I have long regarded the facial wounds to indicate, "You saw what you shouldn't have seen; you've heard what you shouldn't have heard; you've stuck your nose where it didn't belong. Now take that."

Merely theorising.

Cheers.
LC