Was Kate really soliciting?

[Monty]

Can someone pease provide me evidence that St Botolphs was actually used as a meeting point for prostitutes?

My answer would be that you cannot.

Monty

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
I hold the view that Eddowes was not a prostitute, down on her luck, and fond of a drink mayby, but no more.
She was reported to have been a one man type, and her and kelly [ her partner] very much an item.
I would say she was picked up by a sailor near Botophis church, believing her to have been open for business, and the positioning of Eddowes hand [ on chest] indicates to me at least, that she was rejecting amourous advances.
Was this man JTR?
If he was, how did he manage to get a unwilling Eddowes down church passage into the corner of the square without making a sound?
Did he pretend to walk away, and Eddowes opting to cut through the square away from the man, was followed by her accoster, or was the actual killer waiting in the square, and not the man Lawande described.
My money is on Jack, having been rejected by Kate pretended to accept her reluctance, and then followed her into the square, and attacked her as she reached the south west corner.
Regards Richard.

[Observer]

That's it then let's put this one to bed, John Kelly has spoken, Catherine Eddowes was not a prostitute.

An Yet.

She was seen talking at 1:35 a.m. in the morning to a stranger, or at least an unidentified man, who despite being described in some detail was never traced, who never came forward. Ten minutes later she's dead, not 50 yards distance from the Lawende sighting, tucked away in the shady corner of Mitre Sqaure. I'd say she was soliciting that morning. Might I add that Catherine Eddowes was found within a two minute walk of St Botophls church, supposedly a haunt of prostitutes.

Observer

[Hunter]

Yes, this was one inquest where the various newspapers had different quotes or extended versions from several of the witnesses... at least more so than the others.
I had forgotten about the 'DT's' version.

Thanks Lynn.

[lynn cates]

walking about

Hello Hunter. John Kelly's interpretation was this:

[Coroner] What do you mean by "walking the streets?" - I mean that if we had no money to pay for our lodgings we would have to walk about all night.

(The Daily Telegraph, Friday, October 5, 1888, Page 3)

Accessed from Casebook.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

From the Eddowes inquest-no. 135 ( Corporation of London Records Office)

Kelly answering question by Coroner- 'I never suffered her to go out for immoral purposes. She was occasionally in the habit of slightly drinking to excess. She had no money about her when I left.'

Upon being recalled to the witness stand the Coroner asked- 'You were asked before if she walked the streets, and you said she did not.'
Kelly- 'Sometimes we were without money to pay for our lodging, and we were at the time I speak of...'

How would you interpret this?

[spyglass]

Hi,
I dont think it has ever been prooved that Eddowes was a prostitute has it?...
just assumed, and if so must have had another reason for being in Mitre Square.

[DanaeChantel]

I know I'm new here and probably should wait until I know a little more about the killings, but I think I will just jump right in.

I think that possibly Kate Eddowes needed to make some quick money before going home to her man as she had spent all the money that day on drink, AND not to mention, she pawned her man's boots, however, she was probably feeling worse for wear, possibly she was hungry and tired and just wanted to get home. My question is this . . .maybe Jack just attacked her outright or possibly jumped her, knowing she was a prostitute or thinking she was a prostitute. I started a thread on here stating that I wonder if JTR solicited his victims or just outright attacked them in the dark.

Kate probably needed money, but she did tell the constable "I'll get a damn fine hiding when I get home." I'm thinking she wanted to high tail it back to her man and get some sleep.

[Mitch Rowe]

Here's another one for you all....

I personally assume that, after murdering Stride, JTR made a hasty escape, but without the intention of trying to commit another murder. While his bloodlust may have still been high, I think his primary motivation was to get the hell out of the area where he was almost caught in the act of killing someone and get to safer quarters. I also think that, seeing Kate in Mitre Square, he saw an opportunity and he took it. However, that being said, if after killing Stride he needed to get to somewhere safe (as I think he was, and not intentionally looking for another victim)and if his primary residence was somewhere in the heart of Whitechapel (evidenced by the location of Eddowes' apron found in Goulston street), then why would he head all the way in the direction of Mitre Square, which is inside the City of London jurisdiction if his primary residence was back in Whitechapel/Spitalfields?

I believe there is like a Church where Women would walk looking for customers. I think its near Mitre Square. If thats the case then JTR knows where to find easy prey quickly after the Stride fiasco.

[Addy]

Perhaps he did not want to risk a house to house questioning showing him to have come in shortly after the murder?

Or he was forced to take a different route due to policemen asking passers by questions and he still had blood on him?

Greetings,

Addy

[Trevor Marriott]

Here's another one for you all....

I personally assume that, after murdering Stride, JTR made a hasty escape, but without the intention of trying to commit another murder. While his bloodlust may have still been high, I think his primary motivation was to get the hell out of the area where he was almost caught in the act of killing someone and get to safer quarters. I also think that, seeing Kate in Mitre Square, he saw an opportunity and he took it. However, that being said, if after killing Stride he needed to get to somewhere safe (as I think he was, and not intentionally looking for another victim)and if his primary residence was somewhere in the heart of Whitechapel (evidenced by the location of Eddowes' apron found in Goulston street), then why would he head all the way in the direction of Mitre Square, which is inside the City of London jurisdiction if his primary residence was back in Whitechapel/Spitalfields?

What if he didnt kill Stride ?

[JTRSickert]

Here's another one for you all....

I personally assume that, after murdering Stride, JTR made a hasty escape, but without the intention of trying to commit another murder. While his bloodlust may have still been high, I think his primary motivation was to get the hell out of the area where he was almost caught in the act of killing someone and get to safer quarters. I also think that, seeing Kate in Mitre Square, he saw an opportunity and he took it. However, that being said, if after killing Stride he needed to get to somewhere safe (as I think he was, and not intentionally looking for another victim)and if his primary residence was somewhere in the heart of Whitechapel (evidenced by the location of Eddowes' apron found in Goulston street), then why would he head all the way in the direction of Mitre Square, which is inside the City of London jurisdiction if his primary residence was back in Whitechapel/Spitalfields?

[kensei]

Coming in late as I often do-- Let me play devil's advocate here, and get a bit sentimental. A sound byte from Philip Hutchinson's Ripper tour that I went on in '08 replays in my head about Kate and her man John Kelly- "They'd fight sometimes, but generally they were very much in love." I think that's true, and that in the context of the squallor they lived in they were actually a very charming couple. They had spent all their remaining money on breakfast, and Kate had set out promising to try and get more. She loved John, and she meant it. Not finding her daughter to beg from, she probably resorted to a few tricks who either gave her money that she wasted on booze, or she had a client actually pay her with booze. Why do this? Because she was also an alcoholic, and the monkey on her back was always making demands of her, as strong or stronger than her feelings for John. It's textbook addiction.

So she ends up drunk in jail. Theories about an appointment with the Ripper have to rely on a one-in-a-thousand chance of her getting out in time and can, I feel, be discounted. What was going on in Kate's head? Alcoholics commonly do anything they can to get drunk even at the expense of things that are more important, then feel horribly guilty about it later. She loved John, even if he might have been rough with her sometimes (and that's not even for sure, as the "damn fine hiding" remark she made might just have been idle talk she made up for the police). She had promised him money, and she had failed miserably because of drink. She must have felt two inches tall. She must have thought, I can't go to him like this! I have to make at least a little money before I see him! So she headed to St. Botolph's, the "Prostitute's Church," where she happened to meet the Ripper who was freshly on the run from Berner Street and in search of new blood. It was all tragic serendipity. I don't think we should look at "just the facts" in a cold and detached way. I think the emotions of people in Kate's condition are an important factor as well.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Curious4!

My personal impression is, that most women in the East End had a hunch about the identity of JtR!

But most obviously none of the was right!

All the best
Jukka

[curious4]

Catherine Eddowes

Catherine, in my (very) humble opinion, could well have had an appointment with JTR. She twice asked the time when she was released (showing that it was important to her) and I have put forward the possibility that she wasnīt as drunk as she seemed and wanted a safe (and warm) place to wait in. She would have been well aware (and according to one newspaper report was aware) that she would be released when able to take care of herself as this was standard practice. If she turned in another direction to home, whatever she said she wasnīt planning to go staight home. Sadly she wasnīt able to "take care of herself" and if she thought she knew who JTR was she was sadly mistaken. She had failed in her attempt at earning money from hopping (a very bad year for hops - blight and so on) and perhaps the prospect of a reward was too tempting.

She seemed to have been a resourceful and bright woman who didnīt take to the streets as a first choice, unlike some of the other victims.