Was Kate really soliciting?

[Monty]

We know that oral history has her saying 'I have come back to claim the reward money'... suggesting that any offer of a possible reward, or even a hand out by the police, would have been right up her street.

No, we do not know this at all.

We have oral speculation, unfounded speculation at best.

Monty

[Garza]

Hi.
Another speculative idea.
Eddowes was indeed arrested, and escorted back to the nick, but as the police were aware that the killer may have intended to strike that weekend, as it was the last day of the month, also a weekend, it may be possible that they suggested to Eddowes that she could help them catch the killer, by allowing herself to be a decoy, insisting upon her that she would be watched at all times, and therefore safe.
We know that oral history has her saying 'I have come back to claim the reward money'... suggesting that any offer of a possible reward, or even a hand out by the police, would have been right up her street.
This being the case, is it not possible that she encountered the killer near church passage, and was attempting to play for time[ hand on chest] until her protection appoached the man to be checked out?
However her security lost the couple whilst they were in church passage, and it is a possibility is it not,, that Bleinkensop encountered a rather frantic police officer at orange place asking' Have you seen a man and woman pass this way.?
Was Eddowes murdered right under the police noses?
Was that the reason the press found it hard to initially get information about this latest murder?
Did they blow it?
Regards Richard.

That would only work if the police knew exactly where JtR would strike, which would mean they would probably know the probably identity of him anyway. Which I would think impossible due to the thousands and thousands of prostitutes wandering the streets at that time, it would be impossible to set a trap for him.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Another speculative idea.
Eddowes was indeed arrested, and escorted back to the nick, but as the police were aware that the killer may have intended to strike that weekend, as it was the last day of the month, also a weekend, it may be possible that they suggested to Eddowes that she could help them catch the killer, by allowing herself to be a decoy, insisting upon her that she would be watched at all times, and therefore safe.
We know that oral history has her saying 'I have come back to claim the reward money'... suggesting that any offer of a possible reward, or even a hand out by the police, would have been right up her street.
This being the case, is it not possible that she encountered the killer near church passage, and was attempting to play for time[ hand on chest] until her protection appoached the man to be checked out?
However her security lost the couple whilst they were in church passage, and it is a possibility is it not,, that Bleinkensop encountered a rather frantic police officer at orange place asking' Have you seen a man and woman pass this way.?
Was Eddowes murdered right under the police noses?
Was that the reason the press found it hard to initially get information about this latest murder?
Did they blow it?
Regards Richard.

[Abby Normal]

Hey everyone. I was recently thinking about the circumstances of the murder of Catherine Eddowes and something occured to me...why would Kate want to solicit a possible john after just being released after a while being in jail? I mean, think about it: The last time Kate was outside, she was falling-down drunk and acting real inappropriate (making sounds like a fire engine and so forth). When the PC came across her, she in fact was practically passed out on the pavement and he needed another policeman to help carry her to jail. So, it stands to reason that when she sobered up a few hours later, she probably wasn't feeling that good and was pretty hungover. So, I sort of find it a little difficult to think that she would be in any shape to solicit a potential client just for a few shillings. In fact, she told the night watchman as she was leaving "I shall get a damn fine hiding when I get home....thereby implying her next destination was back home.

However now the question is, how did she end up in Mitre Square, which is the opposite direction of where her home is and if it is possible she was not soliciting, what was she doing there? And how did she come across JTR?

perhaps she wandered around a bit and decided to take another street nap-where JtR found her?

[Rubyretro]

.

As far as I’m aware, there was only the Jewish orientated Imperial Club, to provide potential customers for Kate Eddowes in Duke Street,

Well, yes, I think that's exactly the customers that she was soliciting for -and why she was 'chosen' by JtR.

[Garza]

My money is on Jack, having been rejected by Kate pretended to accept her reluctance, and then followed her into the square, and attacked her as she reached the south west corner.
Regards Richard.

First Post!

That would explain the recent brusing on her wrist. Didn't jack prefer to distract his victims by getting something from their pockets then pouncing on their neck?

Was he so jacked up about the last failure with Liz Stride he was willing to risk a struggle?

She was either soliciting/ or she knew the man she was spotted with from the Imperial club, placing her hand on a man's chest is either flirtation or friendly gesture. Could it be she met someone she knew?

Also another thing did Eddowes find her daughter that day? Maybe she did and it didn't go well that day? Hence the mighty bender, she took.

[Observer]

Hi Monty

Regarding the Prostitutes Church. Where lies the origin of those assertions I wonder? No smoke without fire comes to my mind. Of course we don’t even know to which era they apply.

However.

It is correct of you to point out that prostitutes do solicit in the direct vicinity of pubs and clubs, indeed apart from the Bull Head pub which you mention, numbers 10 to 13 Aldgate High Street housed the Thee Nuns public house.

I’m sure there were many other PH in the immediate vicinity of St Botophls, however, I am at a loss as to why Catherine Eddowes would be soliciting in Duke Street/Church Passage, taking into consideration the better options in Aldgate, and the streets thereabouts.

As far as I’m aware, there was only the Jewish orientated Imperial Club, to provide potential customers for Kate Eddowes in Duke Street, would she target this one club? I’m of the opinion that she was picked up somewhere in the vicinity of St Botophls, and took her client to Mitre Square, if this is the case why did they halt, and converse at Church Passage? Did something in the man‘s manner spook Kate?

All the best

Observer

[Hunter]

Probably the most vital aspect of this case - the actual link between murderer and victim - is also the weakest and most difficult to verify. Most of the information about street prostitutes of that era is anecdotal or hearsay. Little was written ( for obvious reasons) about the details of their activities... thus a little common sense has to be applied.

There is a factor that links every one of the victims and that is at the time of their murders, they were in a precarious situation. Polly and Annie had been thrown out on the street. Liz had broken up with Kidney and was back at the lodging house on her own. Kate and John had been having a run of bad luck and Mary had broken up with Barnett and was behind on the rent... and alcohol always figured into the situation as well. However many women some may think figure into some 'canon', or not, it is fairly certain that there was someone out there during that time that was ready to take advantage of the situation for his own morbid reasons.

That much can be reasonably ascertained... All of these women were broke ( including Liz), out alone late at night ( no charring to be done then) and killed swifly, without warning, in a dark place ( with the exception of Kelly)... and despite the police investigating every single one as a 'domestic', ( John Kelly was accounted for at the lodging house) no evidence was found for any single person to have committed any one of these murders... Now that must say something unless we believe that the police were really that stupid.

[Monty]

Hi Observer,

If you have ever read my small humble works you will note that I will refer to the Church as 'The prositutes church'. However I must admit that I go on supposedly local hearsay and not any document and therefore must admit I may be wrong on this.

As for Eddowes being picked up, well she was hopelessly drunk as we can see. She was found a mere few yards from The Bulls Head pub (working from memory here). Later she was in Church Passage, virtually opposite the Imperial Club. It was, and still is, common for prostitutes to hang in and around pubs and clubs.

Whilst it seems Aldgate High St area was Eddowes patch, theres nothing to suggest IMHO that St Botolphs was the hub.

Monty

[Observer]

Can someone pease provide me evidence that St Botolphs was actually used as a meeting point for prostitutes?

My answer would be that you cannot.

Monty

Hi Monty

Please note I used the word supposedly regarding whether the environs of St Botolphs was used as a haunt of prostitutes. However, Catherine Eddowes was certainly in and around that area on the night preceding, and morning of her murder. She was arrested at 8 p.m. (29 Aldgate High Street) literally a minute from the entrance to the church, rather drunk, and certaily disorderly. Considering she had no money earlier on in the day it would be interesting to know where she recieved the money in order to get drunk. She returned again to the environs of St Botophls upon being released from her cell in Bishopgate Police Station.

I would urge readers of this post to turn to google Earth, and access the photographic views of Aldgate High Street.

Catherine Eddowes was picked up on the evening of the 29th 8 p.m. a few short yard down from where the sign says 33 Aldgate House, St Botophls is just where the traffic light is on the same side 50 or so yards away.

Continue down to the church, and the first right past the church is Dukes Place, (Duke Street in 1888) you will see a large red brick building to your left, approach this via Dukes Place, and at the extreme right of the building is the entrance to Church Passage, (now called St James's Passage, it's maked high up on the wall to the left) this is the spot where Lawende and co saw Catherine Eddowes at 1:45 a.m. 30th September, 10 minutes before she was found murdered.

The murder spot is 30 or so yards down the thoroughfare now called St James's Passage you can just see it. She lay very close to the low grey coloured wall in the distance, just beyond the bollards. If you look closely a small white mark appears on the low wall, this is a cigarette bin, Catherine Eddowes lay immediately in front of this, a snear as damn it.

Use the panoramic arrows to slew between the entrance to Church Passage (St Jamess Passage) and St Botolphs Church, see how close they are. To be fair, a row of bulidings existed between the church and the red brick building back in 1888, in effect the other side of Duke Place (Street) they have since been demolished. Kate would not have been able to see the church as she talked to the man at the entrance to Church Passage, the distances however are obviously the same.

You will now appreciate just how close Catherine Eddowes was in proximity to St Botophls on the evening and early moring of her last hours on Earth. It's not a massive leap to suppose that she was using the area around the church as a pick up point for prostitution.

There are stories suggesting that St Botophls was used as a pick up point for prostitues. I have spent a good few hours trying to verify those suggestions via the internet to no avail. As Monty has pointed out though, they will remain part of the folklore of the area until proof is obtained.

all the best

Observer

[Fleetwood Mac]

That having been said, I am of the opinion she was whoring. But the reality is all she needed to be doing to get herself into this disastrous situation was talking...

I don't think so.

I don't think JTR had a problem with prostitutes....he simply needed a woman to go into a dark corner with him....and prostitutes would do this.

The common denominator is a dark corner....and only prostitues would do this....unless you think Liz Stride was killed by BS man....which I don't.....or Liz Stride was not a JTR victim....which I don't.

[Chava]

She may or may not have been whoring. All she needed to do was walk along with a man who had engaged her on conversation until she presented to him an opportunity to kill her. The man she had been seen with may have propositioned her. She may have said no and kept on going. He may have kept on talking and walking with her in a friendly manner right up until the time he killed her. Just because she was walking in a (fairly secluded) area with a man, does not mean she was off for business with him.

That having been said, I am of the opinion she was whoring. But the reality is all she needed to be doing to get herself into this disastrous situation was talking...

[GregBaron]

Soliciting........

I agree with Addy. This appears to me like the other murders. A sudden
attack would probably leave some evidence of such(scratched shoes, a bruised elbow, a scream etc...) This appears the usual MO where I believe just before beginning the dirty deed JtR went for the throat where he strangled until unconscious then laid the victim gently to the ground where the throat was slit. No noise whatsoever. Lynn's theory is very interesting and fantastical and would make for a great movie but I don't go for the political theories. Opinion of course. As far as soliciting, I doubt many women went back to their boyfriends/husbands telling them about the event. Many probably hid it from shame and told some other story about acquiring the money. Rainy, already hung over, 1:45 am, dark corner, I suppose a venue for very secretive spy work but it seems to me more apropos for the world's oldest profession.............

[Addy]

I always understood Kate had her hand on the mans chest, quite friendly, not as if she was pushing him away. What woman would put her hand on a mans chest in a friendly way if he was accosting her and she was telling him to get off because she was no prostitute? Talking about giving mixed signals.

It has often been stated she was a prostitute. She perhaps stopped frequenting the streets when she took up with Kelly, however his walking the streets testimony has been interpreted in different ways: 1 they had to walk around all night when they were out of money 2 she walked the streets (solliciting) when they were all out of cash.

There is probably no way of knowing for sure, however the testimony of Lawende, the site of the murder (a secluded place) and the speed of the murder (no sign of a struggle which you would expect if she was followed and surprised by a man, especially if she had just send him off) and the fact that all the other victims were known prostitutes, suggest to me that she was at least an occasional prostitute and probably solliciting on the night of the murder. No offence to other people's opinions, just presenting my own!

Greetings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

hand on chest

Hello Richard. I think you are right in paying special attention to Kate’s body position during her meeting—especially hand on chest. This may be significant.

A few months ago I was given a piece of evidence from a Ripper researcher that both John and Kate were employed at one time by Jenkinson. The net result is that, in light of this evidence, I looked more closely at John Kelly’s inquest testimony. I did this to reconstruct their movements upon getting back from the hopping. Notice these discrepancies in his testimony

I last saw her alive about two o'clock in the afternoon of Saturday in Houndsditch. We parted on very good terms. She told me she was going over to Bermondsey to try and find her daughter Annie. Those were the last words she spoke to me. Annie was a daughter whom I believe she had had by Conway. She promised me before we parted that she would be back by four o'clock, and no later. She did not return.
[Coroner] Did you make any inquiry after her? - I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon. An old woman who works in the lane told me she saw her in the hands of the police.
[Coroner] Did you make any inquiry into the truth of this? - I made no further inquiries. I knew that she would be out on Sunday morning, being in the City.

Inquest testimony: From “The daily Telegraph” October 5, 1888

Accessed from Casebook.

On last Saturday morning we were both done up for cash. I had nothing but a pair of boots that would bring anything, and I says to her, "We'll pop the boots and have a bite to eat anyway." "Oh, no," says she, "don't do that;" but I told her I'd pawn the shirt off my back to keep her out of the street, for she had had only a few odd jobs for a goodish spell back But she said she'd go and see what her daughter could do. Howsomever, we popped the boots, and sat in this 'ere kitchen and had what turned out to be
OUR LAST MEAL TOGETHER.
She told me she had made up her mind to go to her daughter's in Bermondsey. I begged her to be back early, for we had been talking about the Whitechapel murders, and I said I did not want to have that knife get at her. "Don't you fear for me," said she, "I'll take care of myself, and I shan't fall into his hands." With that she went out. I went with her to the street corner below, and I never laid eyes on her again till I saw her down at the mortuary last night. I was out in the market all day, but did no good. When she did not come home at night I didn't worry, for I thought her daughter might have asked her to stay over Sunday with her.
Star interview October 3, 1888

Accessed from Casebook.

Q1: When did John last see Kate alive?

A: Saturday afternoon at 2 PM at Houndsditch.
B: Saturday morning at 9 AM having breakfast at the lodging house kitchen.

Q2: Why did John think Kate was not back on Saturday night? (see bold)

A: Thought she had been locked up.
B: Thought she was in Bermondsey.

Q3: Does a loving boy friend have his wife go missing and then not make genuine enquires.

Q4: When did John and Kate “pop” the boots?

A: Friday night.
B: Saturday morning.

Now, try substituting the following scenario predicated on the fact that Kate and John are more work partners than lovers. Kate is frantically seeking money and decides to apply a bit of “incentive” threatening to leak information on Special Branch activities against the Fenians. Ultimately, a representative of SB is sent to meet Kate to address her demands. She has an appointment with him. But unfortunately, she is detained.

Now pick up the action. She meets John who acts as liaison with the SB man. (Notice how natural and self explanatory the hand on the chest now is.) John tells her that the SB man will meet her and discuss her demands. John heads back to the lodging house; Kate goes to her meeting in the square.

After being killed, facial mutilations occur first (see Gareth’s dissertation). In particular, her nose is nearly removed in an abortive effort (triangular flaps), corrected by withdrawing the knife and slicing through the tip of the nose. (Message to fellow operatives past and present—keep your nose where it belongs!)

Almost as an afterthought, the assailant emulates the killing of Annie Chapman but makes a rum job of it, cutting through her colon and getting faecal material about. (Notice the ex post facto story by John about fearing for the Ripper.) He also unwisely cuts through her clothes—something that did not happen with Polly and Annie.

Was John and the assailant sent by SB? Not necessarily. If you read ch 16 of Evans and Skinner’s “Ultimate Companion,” you’ll find a story about an Irish operative named John Kelly who instigated the murder. It is entirely possible that SB, rather than shutting up Kate themselves, made known her status as informant and let the Fenians do their thing. That would make John a chap working both sides.

Fantastic? I merely propose this as an alternative to the standard story whereby Kate, at the last second, decides to turn a trick for 4d so she can say to John, “ ‘ello ‘oney! I’ve bad news and good. The bad news is that I was in gaol and deserve a fine hiding. But the good news is that I let some bloke ‘ump me and see! ‘ere’s 4d! Aren’t you proud of me!”

Pay no attention to an old crank like me.

Cheers.
LC