Did Catherine know who JTR was???

[Phil Carter]

Hello Neil,

I agree entirely. I should have said supposedly said.......in conjunction with the title of the thread, that she knew the killer. Thank you for your correction.

Now, the only possibility I can see for her actually KNOWING the killer, is if Kelly, or another known to her, or them, is the killer.
In this conjunction, I have shown, together with Simon, evidence through Kelly's own testimony and the lodging house deputy's testimony, that causes concern, and SHOULD have caused concern to the police at the time.

(Best wishes for the London job by the way!)

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hi Phil,

Eddowes never said she knew who the killer was at all.

It was a news report based on hearsay. Never established, no supporting evidence, it was one of many 'stories' woven around the victims.

The kissing of Strides sister springs to mind.

The bottom line is that there is, so far, no essence of truth in that story.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Boris,

I am of the humble opinion that there were at least 3 different murderers involved in the Whitechapel "killing spree".

However, I digress. Did Catharine Eddowes know her killer?... is the title of this thread.
Catharine Eddowes said she knew the identity of the "Ripper". If ONE of the victims knew the perpetrator of any of these crimes, did any of the other victims?

So therefore, I ask the question I asked earlier, namely, however many killers we are talking of, did the killer(s) know his7their victim(s)? That would change our view of things totally, would it not?

best wishes

Phil

[bolo]

Hi Phil,

Hello bolo,

If, as you write, your thoughts are indeed true, then I must say that it clearly opens up one possibility. Namely, that Eddowes' killer was not the same one as Stride's.

best wishes

Phil

yes, and it's still a matter of heated debates like this one: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3703 .

Let's put it this way, the medicos and police of the time probably were quite sure that both women were killed by the same man and I tend to believe them, simply because they had hands-on experience with the case and saw the victims' wounds (specially the throat cuts) in person.

Regards,

Boris

[Phil Carter]

Hello bolo,

If, as you write, your thoughts are indeed true, then I must say that it clearly opens up one possibility. Namely, that Eddowes' killer was not the same one as Stride's.

best wishes

Phil

Hi Richard,

if we assume that Kate knew the identity of the murderer and told the officers on duty at Bishopsgate Street PS about her suspicion who in turn asked her to lead them to him, Kate must have known where to find the man or how to get in contact with him.

This poses several problems if we further assume that Liz Stride and Kate Eddowes got killed by the same man. According to Dr. Blackwell, Liz died between 12.45 and 1 a.m., that's between 45 minutes and an hour before Kate's mutilated body was found in Mitre Square. If as you say Kate agreed to being followed by a policeman who wanted her to approach the suspect, she must have known that the man would be in or around Mitre Square at that time. However, it seems highly unlikely that the Ripper who barely made it out of Dutfield's Yard hid in the shadows for a while, then headed westwards to one of his usual contact points in order to meet Kate and had the guts to quietly chat with her while being watched by three witnesses, all that while rumours of yet another ghastly murder were starting to spread in the whole of the East End.

I must say this pushes my open-mindedness to its limits...

Regards,

Boris

[bolo]

Hi Richard,

if we assume that Kate knew the identity of the murderer and told the officers on duty at Bishopsgate Street PS about her suspicion who in turn asked her to lead them to him, Kate must have known where to find the man or how to get in contact with him.

This poses several problems if we further assume that Liz Stride and Kate Eddowes got killed by the same man. According to Dr. Blackwell, Liz died between 12.45 and 1 a.m., that's between 45 minutes and an hour before Kate's mutilated body was found in Mitre Square. If as you say Kate agreed to being followed by a policeman who wanted her to approach the suspect, she must have known that the man would be in or around Mitre Square at that time. However, it seems highly unlikely that the Ripper who barely made it out of Dutfield's Yard hid in the shadows for a while, then headed westwards to one of his usual contact points in order to meet Kate and had the guts to quietly chat with her while being watched by three witnesses, all that while rumours of yet another ghastly murder were starting to spread in the whole of the East End.

I must say this pushes my open-mindedness to its limits...

Regards,

Boris

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
Agreed.. however,
If one was trying to be discreit, when attempting to follow someone, at 1 am in the morning, then a distance between that person , especially if they encountered a possible suspect would be more likely to be further then nearer, and because of the blind spot ie Church passage, it is certainly conceivable that a tragic mistake was made.
Hey guys this is just a scenerio..
Regards Richard.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Richard

It was pretty shoddy detective work if he`d lost Eddowes, she`d only travelled 400 yards in half an hour.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Monty,
The very fact that our Blenkensopp was not called anywhere, mayby was an desperate attempt to conceal the fact that a certain police officer failed to carry out a supervision job.
If I remember correctly the police went very silent after this murder, especially with the press.
Richard.

[Monty]

Richard,

Blenkinsopp stated at about 1.30am, indicating he was not certain of the time.

If he was he would have said so, would have been asked why he was certain and, and this is telling, would have been called to inquest.

As would anyone involved in such an operation.

I cite the Stockwell tube station shooting and subsequent enquiry.

Monty

[richardnunweek]

Hi Monty,
Quite possibly, but the time factor would not allow this, according to Blenkinsopps recollections the time the man approached was 130am, ruling out the searching for the killer surely, but right in line with someone trailing Eddowes.
Regards Richard.

[Monty]

Blenkinsopps sighting was most likely either Halse, Marriott or Outram in pursuit of the murderer.

Monty

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Harry somewhat echoes my beliefs, having had a notion for many years, that Eddowes was followed from the police station that morning, [as a sort of early hutchinson] by a police officer, with Kates consent.
Her assignment was to approach the man she had suspicions about, with the secure knowledge that she would be under close observations, if she should happen to encounter her suspect.
I believe the man that approached Bleinkensop [ the nightwatch man in orange place] was that officer, who simply had lost sight of Eddowes, whilst she and her killer were standing in Church passage.
Its quite likely she ventured into Mitre square with her killer, believing that she would be in no harm, as her shadower would be right behind her.
Far Fetched? mayby, however it could explain Eddowes allegedly saying she knew who the 'killer was.'
Also Blenkensops encounter and the question asked.
'Have you seen a man and woman pass this way?
And what about the classic quote..
Nobody saw the killer, unless a 'City PC.
Regards Richard.

[Addy]

It has often been suggested that (some of) the victims knew each other, at least by sight. It could be possible, seeing they all lived in close proximity of each other.

Greetings,

Addy

[harry]

Eddowes,when she made the remark about knowing the killer,JTR nickname at that time unknown,might have been alluding to only one of the three most recent murders,Tabram,Nicholls or Chapman,and accepting because the police and press said so,that all were connected.
Were her suspicions because of a possible connection of one victim with a person Eddowes felt was capable of murder,that connection being known to Eddowes.It seems improbable that she would stop and talk to such a person at that time of morning,but did she have a choice?Did he chance on her,and was she afraid to ignore him and rush off?Was she waiting for a police officer to approach,hoping regular patrols might appear at any moment.These questions cannot be answered,but there are possibilities.
It seems that if her suspicions were well founded,we should look at the people she would most likely know.Persons of her own class.