Some Kate things...

[lynn cates]

TM

Hello Sam.

"Of course, the $hit and blood stains probably got there by some alternative agency"

Well, you know Trevor's thesis here.

The best.
LC

[evilina]

If the apron had a bib (I actually think I didn't) then (I think!) it did not necessarily have any other tie than the one around the waist - aprons could be pinned rather than have a strap over the head.

[Suzi]

If we're going down the Dew road!....... Said pinny was described as 'so dirty that at first glance it seemed black'
-and that's before we add the blood/various unpleasantness and the 'er 'fm' !

Kate's clothing would have probably stood up on it's own!

[Sam Flynn]

Worth adding that Kates apron was almost black with filth at the time she was killed....it wasnt clean white and pressed,...like Dew tells us MJ's always was, or as pictures of such garments appear.

Why is that worth adding? Kate had been rolling, drunk, on the pavement at Aldgate earlier in the evening, and prior to that she'd been hopping in for weeks previously in the dust/mud of Kent. No wonder her apron wasn't exactly pristine. Of course, the $hit and blood stains probably got there by some alternative agency... and that's another little fact that supports the conclusion that the GS apron piece originated on Kate's $hit and blood-besmeared body.

Hi Mike

I cannot find any reference to the Goulston rag having a tie on it. Are you sure this was the case? Brown says this in his post mortem notes :


My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin.

I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street.

I suppose Ill have to try and find the specific reference, but you will not in the above that "a" string was attached to the remaining apron....and we all know it required 2 to fasten.

Ill post it when I find it Jon....but again, I am of strong belief that my memory serves in this instance.

Worth adding that Kates apron was almost black with filth at the time she was killed....it wasnt clean white and pressed,...like Dew tells us MJ's always was, or as pictures of such garments appear.

Best regards

[Suzi]

Re point C) Firstly Watkins had to ensure the empty cottages were secure plus Heydemanns yard. Meaning if Eddowes was there at 1.30am he would have tripped over her.

Also, as an owner of a bullseye I can tell you that the light was fairly decent. Decent enough at 3 yards or so.

Monty

Hi Mont/ Mr Bull's eye LOL

I reckon the piece of Kate's apron found in GS was just a bit of rag that fitted with a bit of rag from the bottom of a rather sad and sorry piece of cloth- OK with ties- wrapped around Kate's waist These were called aprons in the sad and sorry days- a piece of white(well when it started) cloth wrapped aroungd the middle and with ties- tied around the back And it WAS Kates!!

IT WAS Kates pinny IMHO- where the hell else did it come from? Was there a preponderance of
pieces of pinnys???.... could that be a collectective noun or two????

[Sox]

Re point C) Firstly Watkins had to ensure the empty cottages were secure plus Heydemanns yard. Meaning if Eddowes was there at 1.30am he would have tripped over her.

Also, as an owner of a bullseye I can tell you that the light was fairly decent. Decent enough at 3 yards or so.

Monty

Hi Monty,

this has always been THE point of contention. A few days ago I walked around Mitre Square (using a 100% faithful re-production in a game)



using a bullseye lantern. If the PC went anywhere near the corner where Kates body lay then he would, no question, have seen her.....however. If he just comes around the corner from Mitre St and walks into the middle of the square then he misses it, even if he shines the lamp in that direction. From Church Passage (as in the image above) it is even possible that the killer could still have been there and, if he remained still, the PC could well have missed him, it is very dark in that corner.

[Monty]

Back to the original post

Re point C) Firstly Watkins had to ensure the empty cottages were secure plus Heydemanns yard. Meaning if Eddowes was there at 1.30am he would have tripped over her.

Also, as an owner of a bullseye I can tell you that the light was fairly decent. Decent enough at 3 yards or so.

Monty

[Jon Guy]

I believe strongly that youll find one of the ties was on the section.

Hi Mike

I cannot find any reference to the Goulston rag having a tie on it. Are you sure this was the case? Brown says this in his post mortem notes :


My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin.

I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street.

No bib I reckon - in fact I'm sure here- just two ties around the back

Then you have your answer Suz....cause I believe strongly that youll find one of the ties was on the section....I think its possible it was used to wrap around the "package" for take away.

Happy Holidays Suzi!!

[Suzi]

No bib I reckon - in fact I'm sure here- just two ties around the back

[Jon Guy]

I mentioned this on another post but I believe if you review the data that is available concerning this apron section youll find that the piece taken had one of the 2 strings that was used to fasten the apron round her waist on it. It wasnt the key to matching the pieces,...the recently repaired portion was cut through during this theft and they were able to match the pieces by those repairs, was.

Hi Michael

But even without the repairs, the pieces would still have matched.

Hi Suzi

The remaining apron must have been attached to Eddowes as the Police admit that they did not notice that the apron had been cut until they got the body back to the mortuary and began stripping it.

Not by having only one of the two ties or strings, perhaps this one had a bib with a loop for round the neck and the two ties for the waist, behind the back.

Best regards Jon

[mariag]

Good points, Suzi, and thanks for posting that picture.

Sometimes we forget when we hear the word "apron" what a substancial piece of cloth it was. Not June Clever's frilly little cover up.

[Jon Guy]

OK it doesn't directly say that the pinny was wrapped around what remained of Kate's abdomen- but to be honest would that be likely!

Hi Suzi

The remaining apron must have been attached to Eddowes as the Police admit that they did not notice that the apron had been cut until they got the body back to the mortuary and began stripping it.