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  • Maggyann
    started a topic Some Kate things...

    Some Kate things...

    I know a lot of the 'facts' in all the cases are not actual 'facts' - we often have conflicting reports for example or we have delved so deeply into the tiniest element that it all becomes greatly confused. I add to that now by asking

    a) how sure can we be that the apron piece found by Kate was actually hers? Obviously she was not 'wearing' it because one piece with tie was missing so surely it is just as viable a suggestion that the piece left beside her belonged to or was at least brought to the scene by the attacker.

    b) the boot buttons. Kate was wearing mens boots (lace ups?) why did she have boot buttons? Again isnt it feasible that they were left by the (an) attacker. Perhaps popping off in a struggle?

    c) the timings as I have said before with all the tight timelines perhaps we lose sight of the fact that 'time' was not that precise in that period. If Kate left the police station at approx 0100 and it would have taken approx 10 mins to get to the square she could have been dead long before we believe. I know the PC (Watkins) says there was nothing to see at 0130 but it is possible he didnt check that closely into the corner - he does state he shone his lantern to each corner but that doesn't mean he was scanning as low as the pavement. I would imagine he was checking for loiterers so a scan around waist height or so perhaps. He did not actually walk that section of the pavement so could easily have missed the body.

    d) the couple spotted at the end of Church Passage, the women in front and with her back to the witnesses placing her hand on the chest of the man perhaps saying something like 'stay back in the shadows there are people coming'. The couple possibly being involved in the murder - trying to leave the scene? The apron - the boot buttons...

    e) Kate being totally penniless earlier in the day but drunk enough in the afternoon to be arrested? Kate supposedly claiming she 'knew who JTR was' or 'knew about the murders'. Mentioning a 'reward' though there had been no talk of a reward yet? Perhaps she was thinking more of a spot of blackmail? Meeting 'X' (her suspect?) who bought her drinks, enough to get her drunk for some nefarious purpose. Telling her if anyone asks you anything just say nothing. Which she later does even when asked her name. Then 'X' has to hang around waiting till she is released from custody. She spots this person or persons as she leaves Bishopsgate Station and goes to meet them which would explain why she took the direction she did on leaving the station. A whispered 'Kate, Kate over here'. Then off to collect her 'reward' blackmail fee or whatever and death.

    I know most of you are extremely well versed in all aspects (known) of the murders, the times etc so I hope I am not repeating already suggested themes and/or boring you. There is so much information on this great site and I do read it every spare minute but I have a lot still to do.

    Thank you

    Maggyann

  • lynn cates
    replied
    TM

    Hello Sam.

    "Of course, the $hit and blood stains probably got there by some alternative agency"

    Well, you know Trevor's thesis here.

    The best.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • evilina
    replied
    If the apron had a bib (I actually think I didn't) then (I think!) it did not necessarily have any other tie than the one around the waist - aprons could be pinned rather than have a strap over the head.

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  • Suzi
    replied
    If we're going down the Dew road!....... Said pinny was described as 'so dirty that at first glance it seemed black'
    -and that's before we add the blood/various unpleasantness and the 'er 'fm' !

    Kate's clothing would have probably stood up on it's own!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by perrymason View Post
    Worth adding that Kates apron was almost black with filth at the time she was killed....it wasnt clean white and pressed,...like Dew tells us MJ's always was, or as pictures of such garments appear.
    Why is that worth adding? Kate had been rolling, drunk, on the pavement at Aldgate earlier in the evening, and prior to that she'd been hopping in for weeks previously in the dust/mud of Kent. No wonder her apron wasn't exactly pristine. Of course, the $hit and blood stains probably got there by some alternative agency... and that's another little fact that supports the conclusion that the GS apron piece originated on Kate's $hit and blood-besmeared body.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
    Hi Mike

    I cannot find any reference to the Goulston rag having a tie on it. Are you sure this was the case? Brown says this in his post mortem notes :


    My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin.

    I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street.
    I suppose Ill have to try and find the specific reference, but you will not in the above that "a" string was attached to the remaining apron....and we all know it required 2 to fasten.

    Ill post it when I find it Jon....but again, I am of strong belief that my memory serves in this instance.

    Worth adding that Kates apron was almost black with filth at the time she was killed....it wasnt clean white and pressed,...like Dew tells us MJ's always was, or as pictures of such garments appear.

    Best regards

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  • Suzi
    replied
    Originally posted by Monty View Post
    Re point C) Firstly Watkins had to ensure the empty cottages were secure plus Heydemanns yard. Meaning if Eddowes was there at 1.30am he would have tripped over her.

    Also, as an owner of a bullseye I can tell you that the light was fairly decent. Decent enough at 3 yards or so.

    Monty
    Hi Mont/ Mr Bull's eye LOL

    I reckon the piece of Kate's apron found in GS was just a bit of rag that fitted with a bit of rag from the bottom of a rather sad and sorry piece of cloth- OK with ties- wrapped around Kate's waist These were called aprons in the sad and sorry days- a piece of white(well when it started) cloth wrapped aroungd the middle and with ties- tied around the back And it WAS Kates!!

    IT WAS Kates pinny IMHO- where the hell else did it come from? Was there a preponderance of
    pieces of pinnys???.... could that be a collectective noun or two????
    Last edited by Suzi; 12-26-2009, 07:58 PM.

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  • Sox
    replied
    Originally posted by Monty View Post
    Re point C) Firstly Watkins had to ensure the empty cottages were secure plus Heydemanns yard. Meaning if Eddowes was there at 1.30am he would have tripped over her.

    Also, as an owner of a bullseye I can tell you that the light was fairly decent. Decent enough at 3 yards or so.

    Monty
    Hi Monty,

    this has always been THE point of contention. A few days ago I walked around Mitre Square (using a 100% faithful re-production in a game)



    using a bullseye lantern. If the PC went anywhere near the corner where Kates body lay then he would, no question, have seen her.....however. If he just comes around the corner from Mitre St and walks into the middle of the square then he misses it, even if he shines the lamp in that direction. From Church Passage (as in the image above) it is even possible that the killer could still have been there and, if he remained still, the PC could well have missed him, it is very dark in that corner.

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  • Monty
    replied
    Back to the original post

    Re point C) Firstly Watkins had to ensure the empty cottages were secure plus Heydemanns yard. Meaning if Eddowes was there at 1.30am he would have tripped over her.

    Also, as an owner of a bullseye I can tell you that the light was fairly decent. Decent enough at 3 yards or so.

    Monty

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by perrymason View Post
    I believe strongly that youll find one of the ties was on the section.
    Hi Mike

    I cannot find any reference to the Goulston rag having a tie on it. Are you sure this was the case? Brown says this in his post mortem notes :


    My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin.

    I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Suzi View Post
    No bib I reckon - in fact I'm sure here- just two ties around the back
    Then you have your answer Suz....cause I believe strongly that youll find one of the ties was on the section....I think its possible it was used to wrap around the "package" for take away.

    Happy Holidays Suzi!!

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  • Suzi
    replied
    No bib I reckon - in fact I'm sure here- just two ties around the back

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  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by perrymason View Post
    I mentioned this on another post but I believe if you review the data that is available concerning this apron section youll find that the piece taken had one of the 2 strings that was used to fasten the apron round her waist on it. It wasnt the key to matching the pieces,...the recently repaired portion was cut through during this theft and they were able to match the pieces by those repairs, was.
    Hi Michael

    But even without the repairs, the pieces would still have matched.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
    Hi Suzi

    The remaining apron must have been attached to Eddowes as the Police admit that they did not notice that the apron had been cut until they got the body back to the mortuary and began stripping it.
    Not by having only one of the two ties or strings, perhaps this one had a bib with a loop for round the neck and the two ties for the waist, behind the back.

    Best regards Jon

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  • mariag
    replied
    Good points, Suzi, and thanks for posting that picture.

    Sometimes we forget when we hear the word "apron" what a substancial piece of cloth it was. Not June Clever's frilly little cover up.

    Leave a comment:

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