Mitre Sq., arranged meeting scenarios

[Batman]

How would she know it was raining outside she was locked up in a cell.

Would that be impossible for her to learn Trevor? Either by observing those coming in, possibly hearing the rain or being told it's raining out by one of the PCs checking on her?

[Busy Beaver]

Kate had a pawn ticket on her when she was found. Perhaps she was going to use this to get some money. May be she knew a pawn shop that opened in the wee small hours around where she was heading (but on this occasion it was closed).

[Trevor Marriott]

Not really Trevor
She'd had the walk of her life a couple of days before..... extraordinary for an unhealthy couple to walk 35 miles in a day
She had somewhere to get her head down and rest her exhausted body
Why on earth would she want to be released to wander the streets in the rain ... it's ridiculous
If she was as drunk as she made out when she couldn't stand then she was still drunk there hours later when she woke so she thought
" ah let's go wander around in the rain instead of sleeping here ...."
Apparently though ,she was now sober. .... a minor miracle
I would suggest she knew full well the routine about being checked every half hour and bided her time

How would she know it was raining outside she was locked up in a cell.

And I am telling you that for over 40 years of dealing with prisoners they all want out as soon as is possible. The only ones who want to stay are the homeless in todays society who commit crime just so as they get a roof over their head and a comfortable bed to sleep in, thats not at a hotel its called prison.

It a ridiculous suggestion for anyone to say that she had a pre arranged meeting.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[packers stem]

Well ask yourself, if you were locked up in a cell, would you not want to be asking when you were going to be let out. its a natural question everyone asks nothing sinister in it, and certainly nothing to suggest she had a pre arranged meeting with anyone.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Not really Trevor
She'd had the walk of her life a couple of days before..... extraordinary for an unhealthy couple to walk 35 miles in a day
She had somewhere to get her head down and rest her exhausted body
Why on earth would she want to be released to wander the streets in the rain ... it's ridiculous
If she was as drunk as she made out when she couldn't stand then she was still drunk there hours later when she woke so she thought
" ah let's go wander around in the rain instead of sleeping here ...."
Apparently though ,she was now sober. .... a minor miracle
I would suggest she knew full well the routine about being checked every half hour and bided her time

That's the trouble with comparing it to us today .
Yes , we would ask ..... as we would have somewhere to go .
However if someone who frequents a shop doorway in Oxford Street was locked up on a cold night do we think he would ask to leave his warm police cell and go back to his cold ,wet shop doorway ?

[Trevor Marriott]

That may be true, Trev, but we were asking why she wanted to be released, and you replied that it wouldn`t be her decision, which of course we know, but she still enquired.

Well ask yourself, if you were locked up in a cell, would you not want to be asking when you were going to be let out. its a natural question everyone asks nothing sinister in it, and certainly nothing to suggest she had a pre arranged meeting with anyone.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

Jon

Prisoners are always asking when they are going to be released. Nothing sinister about that. Many ask as soon as they are locked up even before interview.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

That may be true, Trev, but we were asking why she wanted to be released, and you replied that it wouldn`t be her decision, which of course we know, but she still enquired.

[Trevor Marriott]

This is true, Trev, but Eddowes still asked when she would be released.

Jon

Prisoners are always asking when they are going to be released. Nothing sinister about that. Many ask as soon as they are locked up even before interview.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

A decison to release is not something a prisoner would decide. It would be for the station Sgt to decide, and there is a tendency to keep people no longer than is necessary, and in this case she was deemed fit ot be released.

This is true, Trev, but Eddowes still asked when she would be released.

[Trevor Marriott]

Have you all never wondered WHY she wanted to be released ?
She had no money
Nowhere to go
It was raining
There's only one sensible reason why she would not have just rolled over in that nice ,dry police station and enjoyed a full nights sleep after the exhausting week she had endured .
And that was to meet somebody

A decison to release is not something a prisoner would decide. It would be for the station Sgt to decide, and there is a tendency to keep people no longer than is necessary, and in this case she was deemed fit ot be released.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Hi,
I mentioned years ago the nightwatchman who stated a man approached him, asking if he has seen a man and a woman pass this way, was most likely a police officer, who had followed Eddowes with a man who had attached himself to her.
She could have easily been a decoy. which went terribly wrong.
What if the couple had been out of sight of the officer , in the vicinity of Dukes passage, and that's when the watchman was approached 'Have you seen a man,pass this way.
Does not the remark, the only person that had a good look at the killer was the police officer on duty near the square, now make sense,?
Regards Richard.

It certainly requires an explanation. The nightwatchman's timing doesn't have to be off as per your model. It is before Eddowes was murdered. It seems the contemporary, if not modern view, is that it was after the murder and this was just a police officer looking for witnesses.

Yet your model is an officer looking for his 'nose' or a woman they were watching. Asking if they saw a man, would mean they knew she was away with a man at that point. Asking if a 'man' passed by also seems to indicate this wasn't the killer following a female mark.

It all depends on the timing plus one would think if the nightwatchman's account wasn't followed up on much that the officer who questioned him settled that it was after the murder.

If it was before the murder it is possible that the officer saw the same man as Lewende and that Lewende provided a better description.

It's all very interesting because this idea that Eddowes went completely unobserved by officers after she left the station is very hard to accept, given she was precisely the sort of candidate for a ripping, at the right hour and time. Another murder was discovered around this time so I wonder if they had even been alerted to that.

Could it be that Lewende and this PC both viewed the suspect in Brighton corroborating each other? Maybe, but then why on earth isn't this PC fingering him from the dock? He wasn't a Jew and so had no issues there.

[packers stem]

If her family called her by that nickname, why should we question family oral history? (Not that it materially affects what I wrote, as I've already said.)

Great .... so your Hutch saw Randy Churchill ?
I've no idea where Sugden picked it up from but there's no reason to believe it one way or the other .

Wilkinson was not a member of her family, so why would she use her family nickname when speaking to him?"Bought and paid for" is just an expression

Of course she wouldn't use a nickname ...... nobody did , these were press inventions
In the same way as Mary Kelly was known as Mary Jane not black Mary , fair Emma or any other nonsense
The phrase was used to emphasise that that was the name she went by ..... couldn't be clearer

Indeed, but you're not seriously suggesting that this was the ONLY time that Eddowes resorted to such tactics?
Not strange at all; Kelly was her partner's surname, so it was natural enough choice

She had been with Kelly years and yet Wilkinson knew her by one name and one name only .We have no reason to doubt him
There is no evidence to suggest she ever used the name Kelly prior to that weekend .

Common usage of first names is completely irrelevant
It's the first and surnames together that become important
In the 1891 census there are only around half a dozen Mary Kelly's around Whitechapel ,spitalfields area of a JTR victim type age
That's all middle names and spelling variants
Despite desperate attempts to paint this name as incredibly common ....it wasn't

Tom is a common name
As is Jones
When you put the two together I'm sure you picture a famous Welsh singer in your mind

[Sam Flynn]

Oh well , that's ok then now we know .
Family oral tradition does well in ripperology

If her family called her by that nickname, why should we question family oral history? (Not that it materially affects what I wrote, as I've already said.)

She used the name Kate Conway "bought and paid for" according to Wilkinson.....

Wilkinson was not a member of her family, so why would she use her family nickname when speaking to him?

doesn't sound so wild and fancy free there

"Bought and paid for" is just an expression.

The other names you refer to were used only on her return from Maidstone that we know of

Indeed, but you're not seriously suggesting that this was the ONLY time that Eddowes resorted to such tactics?

Jane Kelly and Mary Ann Kelly
Strange that

Not strange at all; Kelly was her partner's surname, so it was natural enough choice. Both Jane and Mary Ann were common enough names, just the sort one might pluck out of thin air, but don't take my word for it:

As anyone who does a bit of family genealogy quickly discovers, the most popular female name in Britain, Ireland, and America during the late 19th & early 20th C. was 'Mary'.

I decided to look back a little further in time and found this handy chart, which lists the most popular female given names in Britain over the centuries. As you can see, throughout the 19th C. the most common female name was Mary. (In the 18th C. it was the second-most-popular, being beat out by 'Elizabeth'.)

The two most popular middle names for someone named Mary are 'Ann' and 'Jane'.

So if a 19th C. woman wanted an alias for any reason, any combination of those common names would be a convenient choice.

The chart Archaic used can be seen by clicking on the link below:

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I mentioned years ago the nightwatchman who stated a man approached him, asking if he has seen a man and a woman pass this way, was most likely a police officer, who had followed Eddowes with a man who had attached himself to her.
She could have easily been a decoy. which went terribly wrong.
What if the couple had been out of sight of the officer , in the vicinity of Dukes passage, and that's when the watchman was approached 'Have you seen a man,pass this way.
Does not the remark, the only person that had a good look at the killer was the police officer on duty near the square, now make sense,?
Regards Richard.

[Batman]

Buying alcohol has the habit of making your money disappear.

I was referring to the money she had when she left the police station, not what she might have scraped together to fund her binge.

Why can't they be the same place and person she got the money from in the first place?

What is the barrier to this you have constructed exactly?

[Sam Flynn]

If she never had money how did she get so drunk?

Buying alcohol has the habit of making your money disappear.

I was referring to the money she had when she left the police station, not what she might have scraped together to fund her binge.