HELP: The Farthing 'myth'

[Sam Flynn]

Chapman's Barnet was looking a bit frizzy !!!

"I am down on hairs, and shan't quit snipping them..."

... he may have adopted one of a battery of ruses: Feigned robbery, a promise of money, offering somewhere to sleep, knowing where to get a drink, asking for directions...

Perhaps a coupon for a free 'straightening' and a complimentary bowl of matzah ball soup.

Chapman's Barnet was looking a bit frizzy !!!


Colin

[Sam Flynn]

I think it's a very plausible idea.

Agreed, Dan - in fact he may have adopted one of a battery of ruses: Feigned robbery, a promise of money, offering somewhere to sleep, knowing where to get a drink, asking for directions...

[Ben]

Absolutely.

For instance, I can easily envisage Jack pocketing Kelly's meagre earnings after the Miller's Court carnage.

[Dan Norder]

The theory that the Ripper pretended to only be robbing his victims to gain their compliance and silence was argued in some detail by Tom Wescott in his article "A Murder in the Neighborhood: The Berner Street Mystery - Part 2".

I think it's a very plausible idea.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

that is to say he may also have wished to rob his victims for real.

If so, he might have chosen more promising targets... like men with watch-chains

[Ben]

In Annie's case, what's to say that the Ripper didn't make her turn out her pockets and hand over her rings, as a "mugging" ruse prior to killing her?

Not a bad thought, Gareth. The mugging/robbing ruse was adopted in Australia and San Francisco by Ivan Milat and the Zodiac respectively, and in Jack's case, it may only have been a "semi-ruse"; that is to say he may also have wished to rob his victims for real.

Best regards,
Ben

[Christine]

Hello you all!

An interesting discussion on this thread...

You may correct me, if I am wrong, but wasn't it the American Mafia, covering their victims eyes with coins sometimes?!

Maybe this thing coming up to the general public also created this Farthing myth?!

All the best
Jukka

Sometimes the Greeks and Italians (and probably other cultures as well) place coins on the eyes so that the deceased has money to pay the ferryman for passage to the land of the dead. If a dead person can't pay, he may have to wander as a ghost until he finds some money. There seem to be some variants out there, but the general idea is that you might have to pay a bribe after death. This sort of melds into the whole idea of burying people with things that they might have use for in the afterlife, right up to the pyramids full of treasure. Grave robbers of course will meet up with ghosts trying to get their money back.

I looked on the web, but couldn't find any reason why the mafia were particularly fond of this, but everyone seems to agree it was to pay the ferryman. Possibly they were afraid of their victims coming back as ghosts.

It is not impossible that the killer was afraid of ghosts, or wanted Chapman to have her stuff in the afterlife, but usually these things have to be placed with the body and buried. And this sort of ritual burial is not really consistent with dumping her in the street. It's much more likely that the stuff was just dropped and then set out of the way by Chandler, or someone else.

[Roy Corduroy]

Major Smith refers to the fartings...

Where's blind boy George Dixon when we need him? Recall he heard a man order a drink for Clay Pipe Alice.

Roy

[Christine]

"To the confusing part, we could add that Major Smith refers to the fartings in his memoirs"

A simple typing error no doubt, yet it does rather some up some peoples opinion of Major Smith's memoirs.

Rgds
John

DVV has mentioned on a couple of occasions that English is not his first language.

Suffice it to say that while the words may look and sound similar, the meaning is quite unlike....

[Billy Bulger]

Thanks guys, the farthing issue is an area of the Ripper case I find particularly interesting because I feel if it is true then it tells us alot about our killer. Considering the dire poverty that riddled Whitechapel during the Ripper's reign, if the killer was a Whitechapel resident it seems strange (to me at least) that he would surrender any money or, if the money was Chapman's from an earlier client, that he would abstain from taking it. Dont worry I'm not attempting to perpetuate Royalty connections but I do believe that if Paul Feldman among other authors is correct regarding the farthings, then this solitary action all but exonerates the likes of Joseph Barnett and other local working class suspects.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

An interesting discussion on this thread...

You may correct me, if I am wrong, but wasn't it the American Mafia, covering their victims eyes with coins sometimes?!

Maybe this thing coming up to the general public also created this Farthing myth?!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you for that lengthy reply Sam, you are extremely concise. It almost seems that nearly every melodramatic bit of Ripper folklore turns out to have some more mundane explanation.

Well, it's only a suggestion, Ken - but thank you.

There were also personal items found scattered around the body of Catherine Eddowes, weren't there, as if her pockets had been rifled through?

For an Eddowes thread, methinks.

In Annie's case, what's to say that the Ripper didn't make her turn out her pockets and hand over her rings, as a "mugging" ruse prior to killing her? He may even have made her lay out the items on the ground herself ("Put wot you got on the floor - no funny business!") so as to throw her off her guard.

Another, rather distressing, speculation, but not too wild I hope.

[kensei]

Thank you for that lengthy reply Sam, you are extremely concise. It almost seems that nearly every melodramatic bit of Ripper folklore turns out to have some more mundane explanation. (Well, I really shoudln't say that since there are a few I am still invested in.)

There were also personal items found scattered around the body of Catherine Eddowes, weren't there, as if her pockets had been rifled through?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ken,

a comb, a folded piece of muslin, an envelope containing some pills, etc.- were arranged neatly at her feet. Aren't those things considered to be accurately reported?

The envelope was found near Annie's head - although you might be forgiven for thinking otherwise, after various books and movies stubbornly place them at her feet, along with the other "Canonical 5 Items" (comb, muslin and two farthings). As to being "neatly" or "carefully" arranged, this only seems to have appeared once in all the newspaper reports I've found (in the St James Gazette), and it's interesting to see exactly what the papers did say at the time. In compiling the following summary, I was struck by the importance of taking both Inspector Chandler's and Dr Phillips' evidence into account:

London Evening News, 14th Sept. Chandler: "After the body had been removed I found this piece of coarse muslin, a small-tooth comb, and a small comb in a paper case. They were lying near the feet of the body. A small piece of paper-a portion of an envelope-was found near. It contained two pills." (Phillips' testimony is given in some detail, but this paper omits his take on the muslin/comb etc.)

Daily Telegraph, 13th Sept. Chandler: "I obtained some sacking to cover it before the arrival of the surgeon, who came at about half- past six o'clock, and he, having examined the body, directed that it should be removed to the mortuary. After the body had been taken away I examined the yard, and found a piece of coarse muslin, a small tooth comb, and a pocket hair comb in a case. They were lying near the feet of the woman. A portion of an envelope was found near her head, which contained two pills." Ibid., Phillips: "I searched the yard and found a small piece of coarse muslin, a small-tooth comb, and a pocket-comb, in a paper case, near the railing. They had apparently been arranged there."

Morning Advertiser 14th Sept. Chandler: "After the body had been removed there were found in the yard a piece of muslin, a pocket comb, and a small tooth comb in a leather case. They were lying near where the feet of the deceased had been. A piece of paper - a portion of an envelope - was found near the spot where the head had been, and this contained two pills." Ibid., Phillips: "I searched the yard, and found a small piece of coarse muslin and the other articles mentioned by Inspector Chandler. The muslin and combs had apparently been arranged, or placed in order, where I found them."

The Times, 14th Sept. Chandler: "After the body had been removed, a piece of coarse muslin and a small pocket haircomb case were found. A portion of an envelope was found lying near where her head had been, and a pice of paper containing two pills." Ibid., Phillips: "[Phillips] searched the yard, and in doing so found a small piece of coarse muslin and a pocket comb in a paper case lying at the feet of the woman near the paling; and they had apparently been placed there in order, or arranged there."

St James Gazette, 14th Sept. Chandler: "[Chandler] searched the yard and there found two pocket combs and a piece of muslin. A piece of an envelope that contained two pills was also discovered. All these articles were found near where the woman's feet had been." Ibid., Phillips: "He found in the yard, which he examined, a piece of muslin and two combs which had evidently been carefully arranged and placed against the side of the yard."

East London Advertiser, 15th Sept. Chandler: "After the body had been removed witness saw lying in the yard the piece of coarse muslin produced, a small toothcomb, and a pocket comb in a paper case. They were lying near the feet of the body. A small piece of paper, a portion of an envelope, had also been lying near the head, that containing two pills." Ibid., Phillips: "He searched the yard, and found the small piece of muslin and the other articles mentioned by Inspector Chandler at the feet of the body, apparently as if arranged there in order."

Things to note:

1. Inspector Chandler only ever says that he saw the items after the body had been removed;

2. Chandler states that they lay near where the deceased's feet had been;

3. Phillips only ever mentions the items in the context of searching the yard, not in the context of his examination of the body;

4. Phillips says that the items were placed as if arranged, whereas Chandler never makes such a claim;

5. Phillips mentions the items being arranged near the paling/railing, whereas Chandler doesn't mention the paling/railing once.

If Chandler only noticed the items after the body had been moved, and Phillips only noticed them upon inspecting the yard, it seems possible - if not probable - that they were obscured from view until the body was lifted out of the way. Chandler, examining the ground on which the body had once lain, may then have found the items and moved them carefully to one side, closer to the palings than they had been. Moments later, perhaps having supervised the body's journey to the ambulance, Phillips returns and starts his inspection of the yard, finding the items that Chandler had placed near the fence.