How dark was "Dark Annie"?

[Archaic]

Hi Cel.

I just read your post, and the coincidence of this thread with your signature line "Why is it so dark in here?" made me laugh... So what exactly do you mean by that??

Cheers,
Archaic

[Celesta]

Hi Archie,

Ahhhh, but you see, it involves Pyramids....


Oh, I almost forgot. Who provided the name 'Dark Annie' in the first place? I've been looking back over the material for that but haven't tripped over it yet.

[The Grave Maurice]

We have photos of Annie in life and death, and the only dark thing about her is her hair. Her skin tone is pale in both. The soubriquet must have come from one of the suggestions made by Archaic. I have a first cousin who is 6'6" and has always been called Shorty. As Don says, you can't always explain nicknames logically.

[curious4]

Dark Annie

OK, in the face of all opposition I shall gracefully retire.

Just remembered where I heard this. It was a tv programme (serious) with Eddy(?) Izzard, canīt the remember the exact name but it was something to do with "how english are the english".

Regards,
C4

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

Although this is not totally relevant to the thread, I just stumbled across this as I was trawling through the press reports and thought it too interesting not to post somewhere.

I will have a look through some contemporary British reports to see if I can find the term 'black' being used to describe in the UK Afro Caribbean people, rather than 'dark', so hopefully this still is on topic.

I went cold when I read this report.

El Cronista
Mexico
9 November 1888

A London newspaper, The Daily News, has received a telegram from New York which throws some light on the antecedents of the mysterious London assassin.

The telegram says that some months ago there occurred in the state of Texas a horrible series of murders of women.

The victims were nearly all black, and because of this the sensation was not that great. The murderer operated in the same way as the one in London and performed the same mutilations.

Don't you just love it.

It's interesting how references to Afro Caribbeans have changed in the UK over the years.

My nan and grandad always used to call Afro Caribbeans 'darkies'. I'm fairly certain that a lot of East Enders called them that back in the LVP, as Nan and Grandad gave the impression it was something that was very common and passed down from their parents.

It wasn't used as a derogatory term really, just as a means of identification. It was more or less used in the same way that you would say 'Scot' or 'Irish'. There was always a sort of bemusement when they used it - not animosity, just a sort of curiousity and the feeling that they were a bit mysterious and exotic. It was actually common practice to 'wish on a black man' because they thought it was good luck. There's nought at queer as folk. Lol.

In the 1960s when immigration to the UK started, then the usual term was 'coloureds' - and I won't go any further because we all know what happened after that.

I obviously, sincerely apologise to any Afro Caribbeans reading this - none of this is meant to be derogatory, it's just a bit of UK history.

If I find any 1888 UK newspapers using the term 'dark' or 'black' I'll post them up.

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[curious4]

Black Victorians

http://www.victoriaspast.com/BlackLinks/blackhst.htm

Found this when I
googled Black Victorians - a few statistics.

C4

[Celesta]

I'm not sure what to think because the 'Atlanta Ripper' murders seem to have gotten a fair amount of coverage, and I thought the Austin ones made quite a sensation, as well.

There's a short article on CBook , which also dates to 1888. Here: http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../as880905.html

This one only refers to 'servant' girls, rather than 'black', or African descent, etc. It's pointing out the similarity to the WC murders, of course.

[Celesta]

http://www.victoriaspast.com/BlackLinks/blackhst.htm

Found this when I
googled Black Victorians - a few statistics.

C4

Thank you for posting this interesting link, Curious.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

The time frame for this from the official police point of view, is as follows:-

8th September 1888. Report by Inspector J.L.Chandler

"Description, Annie Siffey age 45, length 5ft, complexion fair, hair (wavy) dark brown, eyes blue, two teeth deficient in lower jaw, large thick nose, dress black figured jacket, brown bodice, black skirt, lace boots, all old and dirty."

19th October 1888. Report by Chief Inspector D.Swanson.

"Annie Chapman, alias Annie Siffey, age 45, profession or calling, prostitute, height 5ft, hair (Wavy) dark brown. Eyes blue, nose, thick nose, Mouth Two teeth deficient in lower jaw, complexion fair. Marks or Peculiarities..On person portion of an envelope stampwed "Sussex Regiment" dated 23rd August 1888. Dress black skirt and jacket, striped petticoat crape bonnet."

Then we come to the inquest. Herewith an extract from The Times newspaper, 14th September 1888, as the official inquest report on Chapman are not to be found in any of the official files:-

George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police stated the following:-

"The front teeth were perfect, so far as the first molar, top and bottom, and very fine teeth they were."

No doubt someone will explain that Swanson merely looked at Chandler's report, and totally ignored the divisional surgeon of the police's expert inquest testimony. Top and bottom teeth as far as the molars were perfect. So unless Chandler looked deep into Chapman's bottom jaw of her mouth, the two teeth missing were NOT at the front..or all the way to the molars.

best wishes

Phil

[Hunter]

No doubt someone will explain that Swanson merely looked at Chandler's report, and totally ignored the divisional surgeon of the police's expert inquest testimony. Top and bottom teeth as far as the molars were perfect. So unless Chandler looked deep into Chapman's bottom jaw of her mouth, the two teeth missing were NOT at the front..or all the way to the molars.

Hi Phil,

Swanson's job was to summarize the various reports from divisional inspectors, so its highly unlikely that he even saw Annie Chapman's body. From Chandler's report its obvious that he is referring to molars as the 'deficient' teeth in the lower jaw; which would not conflict with Phillips' remark about her front teeth. As we all know, molars are the most likely teeth to develop cavities.

[curious4]

Black Victorians

Hello Celesta, Youīre welcome! I found it interesting as well. I am a great fan of Terry Pratchett as well - so sad that he had to get ill, but he does seem to be handling it very well.

Best wishes

C4

[Phil Carter]

Hello Cris,

Yes, indeed. I read somewhere that the tongue protruded from between the teeth but not beyond the lips, but was very much swollen. (Phillips' inquest testimony?) In order to see the missing molars therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that Chandler must have touched the body (mouth) in order to see these missing molars? I think it may have been difficult to see them missing with a very swollen and protruding tongue between the teeth without moving it? I do not know.

I too doubt whether he (Swanson) saw Chapman's body as well, but he must have seen the divisional surgeon's inquest report as he seems to refer to it I believe in his own report in other places. Perhaps I have misread this.

best wishes

Phil

[curious4]

How dark...

I read in (I think Philip Sugdens book "The complete History of JTR") that Annie was said to have bought her three/two brass rings "from a black man".

Havenīt been able to find this in the press reports I have read so far but there are many left to read. If this is true, it is a tenuous link to Londonīs black population in the 1880īs.

Regards,
C4

[DVV]

Rocking with The Missing Molars

the missing molars

Hey Phil, wouldn't that be a f*** awesome name for a rock band ?

[Phil Carter]

Hello David,

Playing at "The Cavity Club" perhaps?

best wishes

Phil