Can someone explain to me 'shabby gentile?'

[GUT]

Whew, as a descendant of Sephardic Jews, I was having fun with the Gentile part! Hi all...my beloved coon dog, Major Dude, Cold Soldier, died today so I'm having a tipple whilst crying. And I found out that my great great grandfather died in a hospital in Spitalfields. He was a tailor...there's a song there. GUT great to see ya, where's Monsieur Pierre? I just lurk now.

So sorry to hear about your dog.

I’ve not long got a new one after a year or two of mourning, he is the light of my life.

Pretty sure Pierre has left the building, suspect he ticked off admins once too often with all his “I know something you don’t garbage”.

[Rosemary]

Hi rose
Sorry to hear about your hound. If it’s any consolation though, He’s gone to that great dog house in the sky, where the bowl is always full and the fields are always long. I lost my dog, titan, a coon hound boxer mix (interesting mix btw ) recently so empathize with your loss. Hang in there though.

Mine was also a coon-boxer mix. Off topic, in a dystopian future, we would have something to eat every day. Great hunters, great territorial defenders. Merci, sha.

[Abby Normal]

Whew, as a descendant of Sephardic Jews, I was having fun with the Gentile part! Hi all...my beloved coon dog, Major Dude, Cold Soldier, died today so I'm having a tipple whilst crying. And I found out that my great great grandfather died in a hospital in Spitalfields. He was a tailor...there's a song there. GUT great to see ya, where's Monsieur Pierre? I just lurk now.

Hi rose
Sorry to hear about your hound. If it’s any consolation though, He’s gone to that great dog house in the sky, where the bowl is always full and the fields are always long. I lost my dog, titan, a coon hound boxer mix (interesting mix btw ) recently so empathize with your loss. Hang in there though.

[Rosemary]

Long time gone

Whew, as a descendant of Sephardic Jews, I was having fun with the Gentile part! Hi all...my beloved coon dog, Major Dude, Cold Soldier, died today so I'm having a tipple whilst crying. And I found out that my great great grandfather died in a hospital in Spitalfields. He was a tailor...there's a song there. GUT great to see ya, where's Monsieur Pierre? I just lurk now.

[ChrisGeorge]

Digging through the Archives with the term shabby-genteel, Chris, I found a couple thousand instances of the phrase throughout 19th century London news-press; and, one instance of its’ literary employment in the 18th century. Much more than a literary definition, a shabby-genteel person seems like an identifiable character out on the streets based on appearance as well. The included news-article from June 1888 caught my attention for two reasons (I’m sure that you’ll catch the 2nd reason while reading). The 1st reason being, the advice sold to Parisian beggars that certain appearances worked better when seeking alms from particular philanthropists. In a literary sense, shabby-genteel is the path Bob Cratchit was headed towards had Mr. E. Scrooge NOT been visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve; iow, a professional “burn-out”. I’ve caught on two articles of clothing that seem to be regular aspects of the shabby-genteel costume: a waist-coat and gloves.

Thanks, Robert! All very interesting stuff! I appreciate the information.

Cheers

Chris

[Robert St Devil]

Digging through the Archives with the term shabby-genteel, Chris, I found a couple thousand instances of the phrase throughout 19th century London news-press; and, one instance of its’ literary employment in the 18th century. Much more than a literary definition, a shabby-genteel person seems like an identifiable character out on the streets based on appearance as well. The included news-article from June 1888 caught my attention for two reasons (I’m sure that you’ll catch the 2nd reason while reading). The 1st reason being, the advice sold to Parisian beggars that certain appearances worked better when seeking alms from particular philanthropists. In a literary sense, shabby-genteel is the path Bob Cratchit was headed towards had Mr. E. Scrooge NOT been visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve; iow, a professional “burn-out”. I’ve caught on two articles of clothing that seem to be regular aspects of the shabby-genteel costume: a waist-coat and gloves.

June 16, 1888

A BEGGAR’S GUIDE

The census of Paris beggars, which was taken recently by the Prefecture of Police, has (remarks the correspondent of the Daily Telegraph) brought to light some curious facts respecting mendicancy in this city. It is a matter of history, of course that Paris beggars have always been a peculiar set of people from the days of the Cour de Miracles to our own ; but the gueux seem to thrive more than ever in these times, when money is made with comparative ease and distributed with generous hands. The Paris beggars have, accordingly, grown prosperous with the age, and we are rather far from the days of the genuine rags and squalor of Miracle Court. The beggar is nowadays well trained in his profession. There is the novice who begs indiscriminately from door to door, and the “old bird,” who only rings the bells of mansions. The gueux have a discovery of their own, in which the names and addresses of rich philanthropists are given, as well as the dodges to be used for unloosening their purse-strings. This is called the “Guide of the Jeu,” or “big game” and costs six francs. There is a smaller volume for “petit-jeu,” which gives the addresses of mere bourgeois people, and only costs three francs. These guides are carefully compiled, and are constantly increased by new additions, each beggar who has discovered a donor selling the name, address, and charitable qualities of the philanthropist to the publishers for a franc or two. Full instructions are given to the mendicants in the guide-book as how they are to demean themselves before those to whom they apply for alms. Rich Radicals, they are told, give largely to those who represent themselves as victims of the Reactionaries, or even to those who allege themselves to have suffered as Communists at the hands of the Versailles Government. Others are told what clothes they are to wear when on duty ; for a prosperous beggar is supposed nowadays to have a wardrobe. Some philanthropists, for example, give generously to those who affect “clean poverty”-that is to say, poverty with a well-washed face and faded clothes. Others are munificent to shabby-genteel people who have been ruined in trade ; while some are only “fetched” by famished jaws and absolute rags. M. Jain, a police inspector, lately came across in a noted haunt of beggars a man who had been a notary, and who, to show the officer what he knew, babbled legal phrases in Latin. Members of the Parliament are, as a rule, a great mark for the beggars.
[emphasis given]

[ChrisGeorge]

It has just struck me that the original query stated, "Can someone explain to me 'shabby gentile'."

There's a fine irony in the choice of spelling, "gentile" instead of "genteel" -- no offence to the original poster!

By the way, it strikes me that the Charles Dickens reference to "shabby-genteel" all those years before (1834) is very pertinent. Persons in the 19th Century were much more cognizant than we are in our day of literature, poetry, and even the classics. Indeed, a mark of the age is that they were constantly spouting lines from poetry or the classics.

So it's quite possible that an eye witness who used the term "shabby genteel" was consciously channeling Dickens. Just a thought to consider.

[ChrisGeorge]

http://irishgarrisontowns.com/d-for-deserter/

Hi Debs. I found this link which gets into the marking of deserters (cupping), and shows the mechanism used to brand a "D", was abolished in 1879. From another link, I read that the Hue and Cry and Police Gazette would dedicate entire page to descriptions of deserters in early 19th, unsure how long they ran that feature.

Believe that Charles Dickens ' description of shabby-genteel in Sketches By Boz influenced the definition.

For more on Charles Dickens and his use of "shabby-genteel" in Sketches By Boz see here.

Cheers

Chris

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Curious,
Sadly, I haven't had a chance to follow it up yet to check. There may have been something in the newspapers or maybe a missing person report that matches up.
Debs

http://irishgarrisontowns.com/d-for-deserter/

Hi Debs. I found this link which gets into the marking of deserters (cupping), and shows the mechanism used to brand a "D", was abolished in 1879. From another link, I read that the Hue and Cry and Police Gazette would dedicate entire page to descriptions of deserters in early 19th, unsure how long they ran that feature.

Believe that Charles Dickens ' description of shabby-genteel in Sketches By Boz influenced the definition.

[ChrisGeorge]

Can someone explain to me 'shabby gentile?'

Think in terms it looks like he was once worth something but has fallen on hard times.

I would agree with GUT's assessment. Yes someone of good birth, for example, who is no longer able to maintain the standards that they were brought up to live. Say they lost their job or the family income through gambling or bad investments.

I think though moreover that it is not only an assessment of where the person is in society but also could be a judgement of the clothes they are wearing: their expensive suit looks shabby, their shoes appear worn down at the heels etc. So the description "shabby genteel" also, I think, particularly when we are talking about eyewitness testimony, is an appraisal of the suspect's appearance.

Cheers

Chris

[Debra A]

Hi, Debs,
Was there any follow-up that put a name to this person?

just,
curious

Hi Curious,
Sadly, I haven't had a chance to follow it up yet to check. There may have been something in the newspapers or maybe a missing person report that matches up.
Debs

[phantom]

I think Robert Downey Jr. does a good "shabby genteel" in the Sherlock Holmes movies.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=robert+downey+jr+sherlock+holmes&FORM=HDRSC2

[curious]

Here's the description of the outfit:

A BODY FOUND IN THE THAMES
The body of a man unknown was recovered from the Thames yesterday off Wapping and conveyed to the Wapping mortuary for identification. The following is the description:- Age about 45; height about 5ft 7in.; dark moustache and side whiskers turning grey, bald at top of head and blind in right eye; dressed in dark tweed jacket and vest, black and white check trousers, white cotton shirt; brown socks and lace boots. Letter "D" tattooed on left arm.

Here's the same man is said to be dressed in a 'shabby genteel manner'

Lloyds List 27th November 1888
FOUND IN THE THAMES
Last evening Mr. Wynne E. Baxter, the coroner for South-east Middlesex held an inquest at the Shadwell Vestry-hall on the body of a man unknown, which was found floating in the Thames off Wapping, on Friday last. Alfred Chapman, a waterman , deposed that on Friday last, at 9.45 p.m., he was in his boat off Hermitage Wharf, when he found the body of the deceased floating in the water. He secured it and took it ashore at the Hermitage Stairs, and handed it over to the police. So far as he knew there were no marks of violence on the body but the deceased had evidently lost the sight of one eye. Stephen Brown, inspector of Thames police stationed at Wapping, deposed that he searched the body, but only found an old pipe and a brass wedding ring. The man was dressed in a shabby genteel manner, and was apparently between 40 and 45 years of age. On the left side of the body there was a "D" tattooed, which the witness supposed meant that the deceased was a deserter from the army, as it used to be the custom to brand deserters in that way. The body had evidently been in the water about two weeks, and was probably that of a man who was seen to throw himself off Lambeth-bridge on Nov 3. The jury returned a verdict of "Found Drowned."


His death certificate says that the man was found in the Thames on the 24th Novemeber 1888 and had been in the water about two weeks; dating his death to around the 10th November, despite the newspaper suggesting he was a man seen jumping on the 3rd.

Hi, Debs,
Was there any follow-up that put a name to this person?

just,
curious

[curious]

Shabby Chic.

Think of the fellow who bought a new suite for his daughters wedding, wore it frequently including to her 25th wedding anniversary and you’re getting the idea.

It's still serviceable and too good to throw away. Why waste money on something new you won't wear more than a time or two?

curious

[Hunter]

I noticed that, in lieu of the recent cold weather here in the states, Walmart has suggested that their customers wear two pairs of pajamas while shopping there.