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  • Annie's birth date

    It seems to be generally accepted that Annie Chapman (nee Smith) was born before her parents were married, at some point between 1840-41. Given that her brother, Fountain (who cited her age at the inquest) was born roughly 20 years after Annie, by which time, according to the census she had already left home, why do we assume that his information about her birth date was reliable? She is said to have been 47-48 at her death, but she could have have been younger and looked older. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has had any luck nailing down an actual birth record for her.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Madam Detective View Post
    It seems to be generally accepted that Annie Chapman (nee Smith) was born before her parents were married, at some point between 1840-41. Given that her brother, Fountain (who cited her age at the inquest) was born roughly 20 years after Annie, by which time, according to the census she had already left home, why do we assume that his information about her birth date was reliable? She is said to have been 47-48 at her death, but she could have have been younger and looked older. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has had any luck nailing down an actual birth record for her.
    Hi,

    This reminds me of a question I had some time ago. Did people celebrate birthdays in the 1880s?

    Sorry if this is a bit off topic.

    Regards, Pierre

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Pierre View Post
      Hi,

      This reminds me of a question I had some time ago. Did people celebrate birthdays in the 1880s?

      Sorry if this is a bit off topic.

      Regards, Pierre
      The answer to that question is yes.

      Did EVERYONE, probably not.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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      • #4
        I have birthday cards dating from around that time. I don't know how cheap they were by 1888, but probably something that only the better off folks purchased.

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        • #5
          According to my information, Annie was born
          Annie Eliza Smith on 1st September 1841 in Knightsbridge.

          Her parents, George and Ruth, were married on 22nd February 1842.

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          • #6
            It depended on how much money you had as to whether birthdays were celebrated, if at all. There were some very elaborate children's birthday parties held in London hotels for the wealthy in the 1880's and '90's, but did poor and large working class families have, parties, cards, presents? Usually not. Some people probably knew their date of birth but the day itself would be like any other. I know Ned Kelly, the Aussie bushranger, born to a large Irish family in rural Australia, didn't know his date of birth, and he wouldn't have been alone.

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            • #7
              http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/8693.html

              Although the 1881 census lists her as 40, a poster on the above thread argues for an age of 39 due to the date the census was taken.

              JM

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rosella View Post
                It depended on how much money you had as to whether birthdays were celebrated, if at all. There were some very elaborate children's birthday parties held in London hotels for the wealthy in the 1880's and '90's, but did poor and large working class families have, parties, cards, presents? Usually not. Some people probably knew their date of birth but the day itself would be like any other. I know Ned Kelly, the Aussie bushranger, born to a large Irish family in rural Australia, didn't know his date of birth, and he wouldn't have been alone.
                My family were working to lower middle class and birthdays were always observed. Some farmers, some miners some clergy, some blacksmiths, some doctors and some lawyers, so a fair old mix.

                Presents may not have amounted to much, even the meal may not have been anything special, but still acknowledged that another year had gone by, now I don't know that this applied to every family of course, but from members of the family that I knew it doesn't seem it was considered unusual.

                All the class difference seems to have impacted was the sort of present or meal.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  MysterySinger, are you going by info you found in the birth records or did you find this somewhere else? Bizarrely, this website: https://www.thejacktheripperwalk.com/victims/#chapman says there's a family bible that states she was born on the 25th of Sept, 1840. I have no idea where this proverbial family bible is. Neal Shelden consulted it, so I can only guess it's in the hands of her descendants. However, in his book, Neal says Annie's birth date still isn't verified. I'm confused.

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                  • #10
                    Annie was baptised on 23rd April 1842 at Christ Church, Albany, Camden. Sometimes birth dates are given in these records but there isn't one in this case. With the parents marrying in March 1842, a baptism the following month for a 7 month old child born out of wedlock seems reasonable.

                    23rd April 1842 at Christ Church, Albany, Camden Annie Eliza, daughter of George and Ruth, living in Knightsbridge, father's occupation 'trooper'

                    Neal may have already posted this somewhere a couple of years back.
                    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                      Annie was baptised on 23rd April 1842 at Christ Church, Albany, Camden. Sometimes birth dates are given in these records but there isn't one in this case. With the parents marrying in March 1842, a baptism the following month for a 7 month old child born out of wedlock seems reasonable.

                      23rd April 1842 at Christ Church, Albany, Camden Annie Eliza, daughter of George and Ruth, living in Knightsbridge, father's occupation 'trooper'

                      Neal may have already posted this somewhere a couple of years back.
                      Here is another thing I have been wondering about. Did people get baptized when they were born or in the early years only? Or would some people also get baptized after their death?

                      Regards, Pierre

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                      • #12
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Baptism varies by religion

                          Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                          Here is another thing I have been wondering about. Did people get baptized when they were born or in the early years only? Or would some people also get baptized after their death?

                          Regards, Pierre
                          Hello, Pierre,

                          When a baptism is performed varies from religion to religion. I can really only speak for the Roman Catholics, but I know that infant baptism is the general rule, though common exceptions are for adults baptized as converts later in life. The Catholics believe that baptism is the first of the Holy Sacraments to be given to a member of the Church, and should be done as soon within the child's first year as possible. At age 13 or 14, the Confirmation ritual allows the young person to renew and reassert the vows made on his or her behalf at baptism. At the person's end of life, a final Sacrament, Extreme Unction or the Last Rites, may be performed to again anoint the person as a member of the church.

                          Episcopalians follow many of the Catholic customs, and do baptize both infants and adults. Baptists tend to wait till a person is in middle childhood or older before doing the full immersion rite of baptism.

                          I am unaware of any Christian church doing a ritual of baptism for a dead person, but suggest you look into the customs of the Church of Latter-Day Saints, aka the Mormons. They have some unusual requirements about making sure all of a believer's ancestors can be accepted into their Church, so all may be together in their Heaven/Afterlife.
                          Pat D.
                          ---------------
                          Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                          ---------------

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                            Hello, Pierre,

                            When a baptism is performed varies from religion to religion. I can really only speak for the Roman Catholics, but I know that infant baptism is the general rule, though common exceptions are for adults baptized as converts later in life. The Catholics believe that baptism is the first of the Holy Sacraments to be given to a member of the Church, and should be done as soon within the child's first year as possible. At age 13 or 14, the Confirmation ritual allows the young person to renew and reassert the vows made on his or her behalf at baptism. At the person's end of life, a final Sacrament, Extreme Unction or the Last Rites, may be performed to again anoint the person as a member of the church.

                            Episcopalians follow many of the Catholic customs, and do baptize both infants and adults. Baptists tend to wait till a person is in middle childhood or older before doing the full immersion rite of baptism.

                            I am unaware of any Christian church doing a ritual of baptism for a dead person, but suggest you look into the customs of the Church of Latter-Day Saints, aka the Mormons. They have some unusual requirements about making sure all of a believer's ancestors can be accepted into their Church, so all may be together in their Heaven/Afterlife.
                            Very interesting, thanks a lot!

                            Regards, Pierre

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                            • #15
                              Interestingly (?) Annie Chapman's mother, Ruth Chapman, appears to have been baptised in 1833. She was born c1818 so was a teenager when Christened.

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