Two knives, two people?

[Darryl Kenyon]

The stomach is very much in the upper abdomen, directly under the sternum and partially behind the ribs, and Tabram sustained several other stabs to the chest and neck, with only one wound in the lower abdomen. The focus of her knife wounds was overwhelmingly the upper part of her body, and all 38 of those were stabs.

I take your point Sam but we could argue that the ripper was getting more confident as he progressed. IE Stabs to rips to organ removal. It could be argued that Polly wounds were different from Annie's for instance.
If I where a killer and attacked a woman with a knife with the intent of murdering her and especially if it was my first kill I think I would aim for the heart area with a knife but as I progressed I would perhaps, especially if piquerism was my goal explore other areas particularly the sexual organs as I got more confident. I think we can see that with the ripper.
Regards Darryl

[Losmandris]

If a solider waiting for his buddy who was off with a girl, decides to go and see whats keeping him, and finds him over a slumped woman which he has been stabbing over and over again, he sees she is gravely injured but not yet dead,...might that "buddy" draw his large blade and finish the girl off to save her more suffering and protect his buddy from being identified by the woman should she survive the many smaller wounds?

We know that a soldier was waiting for his buddy in that area under those circumstances...that should be enough to entertain this kind of scenario here, in conjunction with Polls story. We do have 2 weapons, and the large one being used only once and last, through the breastbone,...if the pen knife stabber also had that larger knife, why would he only use it when he had exhausted himself from stabbing her all over?

That is a very interesting proposition. One that could certainly fit.

[Michael W Richards]

Surely unlikely that a second man simply came on the scene when we consider that the location didn’t get any passing traffic except for residents? How many people on finding a body that might have been still alive would, instead of going for a doctor or a Constable, have decided to grab a large knife and put her out of her misery?

If a solider waiting for his buddy who was off with a girl, decides to go and see whats keeping him, and finds him over a slumped woman which he has been stabbing over and over again, he sees she is gravely injured but not yet dead,...might that "buddy" draw his large blade and finish the girl off to save her more suffering and protect his buddy from being identified by the woman should she survive the many smaller wounds?

We know that a soldier was waiting for his buddy in that area under those circumstances...that should be enough to entertain this kind of scenario here, in conjunction with Polls story. We do have 2 weapons, and the large one being used only once and last, through the breastbone,...if the pen knife stabber also had that larger knife, why would he only use it when he had exhausted himself from stabbing her all over?

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed. There are now some serious doubts surrounding the reliability of Pearly Poll's testimony for the night in question. I think people believing her has led to this idea that Martha was murdered by a soldier.

Tristan

I believe that the bayonet, mentioned by Killeen, is the reason some felt it was a soldier, and Poll's statements corroborate that idea. On Bank Holidays it was acceptable for serving and retired soldiers to wear short swords and bayonets in public, and they were often seen travelling in pairs, as good soldier buddies would. Believing her story would have some historical support based on those factors.

[MrBarnett]

Could there be some truth in the tale that she was killed by a solider then?

The thing I still have trouble with is why not just use the bigger knife in the first place?

Tristan

A soldier, or an old soldier, possibly.

Perhaps the smaller implement was easier to hand/to handle and the attacker didn’t initially have murder in mind. Once his rage subsided, he realised he had to finish the job off and his army training told him where to place the final stab and with what kind of implement.

[Losmandris]

To answer the thread question, it could be either, but I’d plump for its being a single attacker with some army training who carried more than one bladed tool around with him.

The pulling apart of Martha’s upper clothing might have been to enable the killer to identify where to locate the final stab so as to ensure it was fatal.

Could there be some truth in the tale that she was killed by a solider then?

The thing I still have trouble with is why not just use the bigger knife in the first place?

Tristan

[Sam Flynn]

I don't agree with all of this Sam, Six of the known knife wounds were in Martha's stomach

The stomach is very much in the upper abdomen, directly under the sternum and partially behind the ribs, and Tabram sustained several other stabs to the chest and neck, with only one wound in the lower abdomen. The focus of her knife wounds was overwhelmingly the upper part of her body, and all 38 of those were stabs.

[MrBarnett]

To answer the thread question, it could be either, but I’d plump for its being a single attacker with some army training who carried more than one bladed tool around with him.

The pulling apart of Martha’s upper clothing might have been to enable the killer to identify where to locate the final stab so as to ensure it was fatal.

[MrBarnett]

British Army bayonet training:

The enemy see you running towards them with a bayonet and they know you’re going to thrust that into their sternum...’

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE

[Herlock Sholmes]

Likely 2...one that got angry and stabbed her 38 times, and a second who came upon the scene and essentially mercy killed her with a much more lethal weapon.

Surely unlikely that a second man simply came on the scene when we consider that the location didn’t get any passing traffic except for residents? How many people on finding a body that might have been still alive would, instead of going for a doctor or a Constable, have decided to grab a large knife and put her out of her misery?

[Darryl Kenyon]

the nature of the knife wounds was very different and directed at a totally different part of Tabram's body,

I don't agree with all of this Sam, Six of the known knife wounds were in Martha's stomach. His next victim had her abdomen attacked with jagged cuts, they may not have been piercings but they were in the same area as some of Martha's injuries
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Killeen said that the dagger blow was the final one, and stated that Tabram had been alive through the minor stabbings. He would have gone by the bleeding to establish this.

Dr Kileen - The heart, which was rather fatty, was penetrated in one place, and that would be sufficient to cause death

[Losmandris]

Thanks for the clarification. This where I struggle with this, why change weapon for the Coup de grâce? It doesn't make sense for a lone attacker to do this?

Tristan

[Fisherman]

Or possible that Martha was killed with the single stab wound by one person, maybe the fabled soldier talked about? They quickly leave the scene, enter stage left JtR who has been following the couple as a peeping tom. Seeing the murder occur triggers something in him which leads him to stab the now dead body 38 odd times with what he had to hand i.e. his pocket knife. This incident then becomes the catalyst for him to go on to commit the other murders. Totally bonkers I know but could be a way to explain the different MO with MT and the escalation in the savagery?

Question is, was there any indication or definitive proof from the inquest that all the injuries occurred at the same time? If so this little flight of fancy is easily blown out of the water.

Tristan

Killeen said that the dagger blow was the final one, and stated that Tabram had been alive through the minor stabbings. He would have gone by the bleeding to establish this.

[Losmandris]

Likely 2...one that got angry and stabbed her 38 times, and a second who came upon the scene and essentially mercy killed her with a much more lethal weapon.

Or possible that Martha was killed with the single stab wound by one person, maybe the fabled soldier talked about? They quickly leave the scene, enter stage left JtR who has been following the couple as a peeping tom. Seeing the murder occur triggers something in him which leads him to stab the now dead body 38 odd times with what he had to hand i.e. his pocket knife. This incident then becomes the catalyst for him to go on to commit the other murders. Totally bonkers I know but could be a way to explain the different MO with MT and the escalation in the savagery?

Question is, was there any indication or definitive proof from the inquest that all the injuries occurred at the same time? If so this little flight of fancy is easily blown out of the water.

Tristan