Tumblety in Holloway

[GUT]

Hello Paul,

Yes, but would they be aware that he had been in custody for a brief period ? How widely would the remand hearing have been reported? Was it reported at all, bearing in mind no one as yet discovered a single newspaper report referring to Tumblety being remanded or released on bail following the 7th November hearing?

But I suspect FT would have known, and what % of newspapers are readily available to search, or indeed have been searched.

[John G]

I think it may be dangerous to make compare Wilde and Tumblety, But someone better informed about Wilde than I am could probably confirm that.

What does intrigue me is that when Annie Farmer was attacked and it was accepted by many that her attacker was the Ripper, some American newspapers questioned whether this destroyed the police case against Tumblety, in prison at that time. Now, if the press recognised that Tumblety had an alibi if Farmer had been attacked by the Ripper, surely they'd have done exactly the same if Tumblety had been in custody when Kelly was murdered.

Hello Paul,

Yes, but would they be aware that he had been in custody for a brief period ? How widely would the remand hearing have been reported? Was it reported at all, bearing in mind no one as yet discovered a single newspaper report referring to Tumblety being remanded or released on bail following the 7th November hearing?Moreover, wasn't it speculated that Cream could have been JtR following his "I am Jack..." "Confession", despite the fact he was also in prison during the relevant period?

[GUT]

I think it may be dangerous to make compare Wilde and Tumblety, But someone better informed about Wilde than I am could probably confirm that.

What does intrigue me is that when Annie Farmer was attacked and it was accepted by many that her attacker was the Ripper, some American newspapers questioned whether this destroyed the police case against Tumblety, in prison at that time. Now, if the press recognised that Tumblety had an alibi if Farmer had been attacked by the Ripper, surely they'd have done exactly the same if Tumblety had been in custody when Kelly was murdered.

That's pretty much the argument some have been making for years.

David's now closed thread [I must have missed some fun bits], supports this proposition.

[PaulB]

I think it may be dangerous to make compare Wilde and Tumblety, But someone better informed about Wilde than I am could probably confirm that.

What does intrigue me is that when Annie Farmer was attacked and it was accepted by many that her attacker was the Ripper, some American newspapers questioned whether this destroyed the police case against Tumblety, in prison at that time. Now, if the press recognised that Tumblety had an alibi if Farmer had been attacked by the Ripper, surely they'd have done exactly the same if Tumblety had been in custody when Kelly was murdered.

[Trevor Marriott]

I wonder if the publicity surrounding the Oscar Wilde case was an issue, particularly as regards the earlier unsuccessful libel case against the Marquis of Queensbury. Was it the case that the courts were simply determined to make an example of him?

Hi John
It doesn't detract from the fact that Wilde was suitable case for bail and was not granted bail.The magistrate clearly exercised his discretionary powers !

Perhaps we can now put this issue to bed now. But I suspect that we will see all manner of excuses and explanations from those who will still not accept the reality that in the balance of probability Tumblety was not bailed until after committal despite this case proving that point.

[John G]

I wonder if the publicity surrounding the Oscar Wilde case was an issue, particularly as regards the earlier unsuccessful libel case against the Marquis of Queensbury. Was it the case that the courts were simply determined to make an example of him? It would also be interesting to know how soon the committal hearing was after the remand hearing. Was this a case that was rushed through the courts?

[Trevor Marriott]

Gee your a funny bloke Trevor the other day your mantra was "No two cases are the same" now you want to use Wilde to support your position, you can't have t both ways.

They are not, but the point here is that Wilde ticked all the boxes for bail, but was refused. Tumblety didnt tick any boxes so with that in mind why would a court risk bailing him in the first instance?

[GUT]

Now I am really glad you mentioned this case because it is identical in almost every fashion to that of Tumblety.

Wilde was arrested on a warrant for offences of gross indecency.
Wilde as per the terms of the warrant taken before the magistrate.

Tumblety arrested on a warrant for offences of gross indecency
Tumblety taken before the magistrate

Wilde refused bail on his first appearance before the magistrate who clearly used his discretionary powers.

Was Wilde a suitable case to be bailed in the first instance? yes he ticked all the boxes. he was well known, he had a fixed address, and had known assests, and had immediate access to sureties, yet he was refused bail. Why was he refused bail ? I would suggest that was because he was deemed to be a flight risk, and perhaps likely to interfere with witnesses.

So to those who have supported Davids ramblings by saying there is not one case that supports the belief that Tumblety could have been remanded in custody on Nov 7th I give you the case of Oscar Wilde to prove my point that Tumblety was not bailed before committal. It only needs one case !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Gee your a funny bloke Trevor the other day your mantra was "No two cases are the same" now you want to use Wilde to support your position, you can't have t both ways.

[GUT]

Another job well done David.

[Trevor Marriott]

Great job David,

It just occurred to me; Oscar Wilde was remanded in Holloway Prison awaiting his gross indecency case. It looks like Wikipedia is saying he then began his two years in Pentonville Prison, then was transferred to Reading Gaol.

Sincerely,

Mike

Now I am really glad you mentioned this case because it is identical in almost every fashion to that of Tumblety.

Wilde was arrested on a warrant for offences of gross indecency.
Wilde as per the terms of the warrant taken before the magistrate.

Tumblety arrested on a warrant for offences of gross indecency
Tumblety taken before the magistrate

Wilde refused bail on his first appearance before the magistrate who clearly used his discretionary powers.

Was Wilde a suitable case to be bailed in the first instance? yes he ticked all the boxes. he was well known, he had a fixed address, and had known assests, and had immediate access to sureties, yet he was refused bail. Why was he refused bail ? I would suggest that was because he was deemed to be a flight risk, and perhaps likely to interfere with witnesses.

So to those who have supported Davids ramblings by saying there is not one case that supports the belief that Tumblety could have been remanded in custody on Nov 7th I give you the case of Oscar Wilde to prove my point that Tumblety was not bailed before committal. It only needs one case !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[mklhawley]

Great job David,

It just occurred to me; Oscar Wilde was remanded in Holloway Prison awaiting his gross indecency case. It looks like Wikipedia is saying he then began his two years in Pentonville Prison, then was transferred to Reading Gaol.

Sincerely,

Mike

[David Orsam]

Your research is impeccable. Hoping that you put it to good use in an article for 'Ripperologist' or is there an impending book?

Thanks Amanda. No, I don't have any plans for a book, this has all been a bit of an accident which started with me simply trying to find some more newspaper reports of Charles Cross and Robert Paul's inquest evidence and has somehow gathered its own momentum.

I was going to reply to PaulB's post about a possible Ripperologist article, but the other thread is closed, so I'm waiting to see if it reopens.

[David Orsam]

"On and after to-day all prisoners on remand and for trial within the Metropolitan police district, are to be committed to Holloway Prison, in consequence of the closure of Clerkenwell Prison."

Oops, "closing" not "closure", so correct quote is:

"On and after to-day all prisoners on remand and for trial within the Metropolitan police district are to be committed to Holloway Prison, in consequence of the closing of Clerkenwell Prison."

[Chris]

Well...yes. Nobody wants to be wrong about anything.

Indeed. Though mostly the people who are most disturbed by the thought of being wrong seem to be those least likely to say "We just don't know." Life's funny like that.

[Scott Nelson]

Well...yes. Nobody wants to be wrong about anything.