Proof of Tumblety's Misogyny

[mklhawley]

Actually, Lechmere is right in seeking out some documented examples. Was he ever convicted of any crimes against women? Was he ever charged with crimes against women? These are absolutely important questions to ask. Without suitable answers, this idea of misogyny shouldn't be part of the case against Tumblety. No doubt he was suspected of the Whitechapel murders, but was that simply because he was a vociferous sneering scoundrel who happened to be keen on men?

Mike

So, why would being convicted of crimes against women be the only documented evidence to demonstrate he hated women? Here's an example of someone who liked Tumblety. First, from James Maguire, a former valet of Francis Tumblety,

St. Louis Republic, January 17, 1889:
LOUISVILLE, Jan. 16. – Mr. James D. Maguire, at present cashier of a restaurant in this city, believes that Dr. Tumblety is really the Whitechapel fiend. Mr. Maguire acted as Tumblety’s valet for a time in St. Louis and knows the man quite well… “Tumblety is not altogether unworthy of consideration in connection with the Whitechapel crimes. He has always been outspoken, if not notorious as a woman-hater. In all that is known of his life in the past 30 years he has never been mixed up with or made himself the companion of females. His antipathy to fallen women has been especially marked…

This actually leads to the December 1888 comments of someone who knew Francis Tumblety beginning over a quarter of a century prior to the murders. This person was Charles Dunham. Because ripperologists have been under the misconception that Charles Dunham was a pathological liar, his commented have been relegated as untrustworthy, thus, we seem to have forgotten what he stated about Francis Tumblety. I had written two articles on Charles Dunham, demonstrating that he was far from being a pathological liar (the job description for a Civil War double agent was convincing deception, but that was only during the Civil War and the presidential assassination fiasco) AND that lying about Tumblety in 1888 would have been out of character for him. If we put Dunham in a new light, note what he stated about Tumblety,

Rochester Democrat and Republican, 3 December 1888,
Special to the New York World.
LONDON, Dec. 1.
…When to my knowledge of the man’s history, his idiosyncrasies, his revolting practices, his antipathy to women, and especially to fallen women.” …

Some one asked why he had not invited some women to his dinner. His face instantly became as black as a thunder cloud. He had a pack of cards in his hand, but he laid them down and said, almost savagely: 'No, Colonel, I don't know any such cattle, and if I did I would, as your friend, sooner give you a dose of quick poison than take you into such danger.' He then broke into a homily on the sin and folly of dissipation, fiercely denounced all woman and especially fallen women.

How interesting this fits Littlechild's comments to a tee.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Lechmere]

Mike
If someone argues against your theory, it is slightly poor to just throw your hands up and say 'oh you are against my theory so I won't bother answering any of your points'. That is what you repeatedly do.
Of course there's no reason why you should answer questions or criticisms but it makes your case look dreadfully weak.
I'm not asking for a legal case where Tumblety was arrested for some act against a woman. I'm asking for an incident where he can be shown conclusively to be a literal woman hater. You have searched and searched and found nothing - so far anyway.

It is a fact on record that Tumblety was referred to as a 'woman hater'.
This can be taken as corroboration for Littlechild's remark about his feelings towards women as 'bitter in the extreme'. But I am afraid this simply does not prove that he was a misogynist.
Particularly when the comment was made in the same sentence that mentions Tumblety's 'Sycopathia Sexualis' - which is unquestionably a reference to his homosexuality.

[The Good Michael]

Lechmere,

Knowing your anti-Tumblety bias, I am not at all surprised of your conclusion. It's not your argument that is convincing, it's your bias. Sorry.

Re-read Stewart's post. Again, you scream of bias.

Actually, Lechmere is right in seeking out some documented examples. Was he ever convicted of any crimes against women? Was he ever charged with crimes against women? These are absolutely important questions to ask. Without suitable answers, this idea of misogyny shouldn't be part of the case against Tumblety. No doubt he was suspected of the Whitechapel murders, but was that simply because he was a vociferous sneering scoundrel who happened to be keen on men?

Mike

[mklhawley]

Lechmere,

Knowing your anti-Tumblety bias, I am not at all surprised of your conclusion. It's not your argument that is convincing, it's your bias. Sorry.

Re-read Stewart's post. Again, you scream of bias.

[Lechmere]

I have read Mike’s article in the journal of the Whitechapel Society.
He allots a great deal of space to setting out the case for accepting that in the late 19th century misogyny was recognised and that some people used the term ’woman hater’ to refer to men who literally hated women, as opposed to it being a term used to refer to a homosexual.
In this context it really it is a small matter as to whether the specific term ‘woman hater’ is employed or a looser expression such as ‘feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme’. This expression essentially conveys the same meaning – and could have been intended to mean the individual so described was a homosexual or someone who literally was very bitter about womankind without actually being a homosexual.

While it undoubtedly is the case that ‘woman hater’ or indeed looser expressions conveying in essence the same meaning, could both refer to either a homosexual or a non-homosexual with a bad attitude towards women, the question is which was the more usual usage of the term?
And in the context of Tumblety which is the more likely?

To make a convincing case that Tumblety was an extreme misogynist (besides being a homosexual) and that this his hatred of women was of such a strong character that he could have engaged in a killing spree – and that whenever such terms as woman hater or other analogous expressions were used with respect to Tumblety it was not coded language for his homosexuality – then we will need some concrete examples from his well recorded life.

What do we have?
The Sheffield and Rotherham Independent of 5th December 1888:
‘who has repeatedly made threats against females of dissolute character’
Where did they get this information from? Well it came from the Daily Telegraph, but where did the Telegraph get it from? From reports in the United States that accompanied Tumblety’s flight there probably.
Let’s drill back – do we actually have anything to substantiate this press claim?
No.
Oh, we have an example via Joe Chetcuti of Tumblety being rude to some women patients, found in the Liverpool Leader of 9th January 1875.
Then we have examples of Tumblety speaking slightingly of women to young men who were his ‘marks’ for seduction.
Guess what? Older homosexuals sometimes do that when attempting to seduce impressionable youngsters. This does not actually imply that the said older homosexual actually ‘hates’ women. He is trying to ‘turn off’ his ‘mark’ from wanting to be with women.

Against we know for a fact that Tumblety had close and friendly and loyal relationships with female landladies. We know that in one of his will’s he wanted to leave money to fallen women.

Are there any concrete examples that show that Tumblety actually displayed real misogynistic hatred for women? Surely there should be. If he was so notorious for it.

I would strongly suggest that the more usual usage of 'woman hater' and similar expressions was as a euphemism for a homosexual. As Tumblety was a homosexual it is likely - in the absence of other strong evidence - that the term when used in connection with him that it was just as a euphemism.

[Stewart P Evans]

A brief interjection...

A brief interjection here, just to set the record straight, what Littlechild actually wrote was, "...but his feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record."

This is rather different than simply stating that he had 'a hatred of women' or that he was a 'woman hater.' So, hardly a euphemism I should have thought. Littlechild described Tumblety's feelings towards women as 'remarkable and bitter' and then added to this by stating that this was 'a fact on record.' That is not merely stating he was homosexual in a roundabout way.

Just because we don't know where Littlechild's 'fact on record' existed (probably in Tumblety's file), doesn't mean that it didn't exist. Littlechild was not making out a huge case to prove Tumblety was the Ripper, he was merely adding to the statement that Tumblety was 'a very likely' suspect.

[Barrister]

Chief Inspector,
I think you made an astute point about the euphemism and, given the era we are discussing, lends verisimilitude to the point. Thanks for taking time to respond.
Barrister

[mklhawley]

There's more to come and thanks John.

Mike

[Dr. John Watson]

Hi Mike.

With your vast knowledge of the subject, I will certainly defer to you when it comes to the facts concerning Tumblety. However, I don't think you have proven the validity of the unsubstantiated claim that he hated women. Without documented evidence that he ever abused or mistreated any woman, or publicly proclaimed his hatred of them, or is proven to have made statements to that effect, it must be concluded that his preference for other males and his warnings to young men to avoid loose women led others to perceive him as being a woman hater. Of course, you have mentioned several sources to support your position - sources I'm not aware of - so I may have to revise my thinking at some future time. Keep up the good work!

John

[mklhawley]

Total aside... Did his doctors believe him?

Hi Errata,

Henry Havelock Ellis (1859 – 1939), a British physician and psychologist, focused his research on homosexuality in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, and in 1897 he published a book called Sexual Inversion. In there, a case subject states: “Even their [women’s] physical beauty has little or no charm for me, and I often wonder how men can be so affected by it. On the other hand, I am not a woman-hater, and have several strong friends of the opposite sex.”

It looks like Ellis was more concerned about the man lover part, so I'm not sure.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Errata]

Oh I forgot to mention. I also have a medical article where a professed homosexual, a man lover, at the time state: "Now, I am not a woman hater..."

Mike

Total aside... Did his doctors believe him?

[mklhawley]

Oh I forgot to mention. I also have a medical article where a professed homosexual, a man lover, at the time state: "Now, I am not a woman hater..."

Mike

[mklhawley]

Hi Errata,

That's what my entire article was about. In the late nineteenth century, 'woman hater' had two meanings. One was homosexual and the other was misogynist. The woman's suffrage movement was in full swing, so I have articles calling actual woman haters 'woman haters'. I then demonstrate that, woman hater in Tumblety's case meant hatred of women. Case in point: when Littlechild talked about Tumblety's homosexuality he used the term, 'Psychopathia sexualis' (or something like that). He never used the term 'woman hater' with Tumblety, he stated 'bitter hatred towards women'.

Mike

[Errata]

What are the odds that "Hatred of women" or "woman hater" is simply a euphemism for homosexuality?

Threats and violence is kind of a separate thing, since any number of men who profess to love women do the same thing (and vice versa).

But despite the various other phrases that could be used to describe a misogynist, including "misogynist", it seems that "hater of women" is the preferred description. And that is slightly odd.

[mklhawley]

Another point is that we actually do know what was in the Scotland Yard dossier, at least part of it. If Tumblety had any legal issues involving Scotland Yard, it would have been in it. One of them involved a young man in the late 1870s, but there's more. Not only did Littlechild know of his hatred of women, but his unusual hatred. It's interesting how the Daily Telegraph mentioned this. Who was the source for the Daily Telegraph. Sounds very police-like to me.

Sincerely,
Mike