Question about Tumblety's origins

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Hi Siobahn,

On closer inspection, there does not appear to be any
link between the Conroy-Tumbletys of Ohio and the
family of Francis Tumblety of Rochester New York. There
is the possibility that the two Margarets were cousins,
but until the Irish Tumbletys are identified, this cannot
be verified.

Sorry, my mistake.

Liv

Hi Livia,
I'm now up to my neck in new leads and such for the origins/ birthplace of Francis Tumblety's family in Ireland. Most of the replies to my Anglo-Celt request are from Irish people (still living here) who don't have that much interest in Jack the Ripper. Ironic.
One source using James Tumblety's gravesite states he was born in 1771.
It will take a good while to get through all the material/ new leads I've been given. If/when I make that major breakthrough I will be letting y'all know!!!
I agree with you on the Conroy connection. It doesn't stand up though Bill (who did all the digging/ research) seems like a lovely fella...

[Livia]

Hi Siobahn,

On closer inspection, there does not appear to be any
link between the Conroy-Tumbletys of Ohio and the
family of Francis Tumblety of Rochester New York. There
is the possibility that the two Margarets were cousins,
but until the Irish Tumbletys are identified, this cannot
be verified.

Sorry, my mistake.

Liv

[Livia]

This is from an unsourced family tree on Ancestry:

James Tumbletee

Birth 1777 in Ireland

Death 7 May 1851 in Rochester, Monroe, New York

Wife
Margaret

Birth 1788 in Ireland

Death 27 May 1873 in Rochester, Monroe, New York


Only one child listed:

Margaret Tumbletee m. Hugh James Conroy of Tazwell, VA

Birth 1826 in Dublin, Ireland

Death 18 Oct 1898


Margaret (wife of James) is listed in the 1868 Rochester
City Directory as the widow of James.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Tumblety's father James

Hi all,
Anyone know roughly what year Tumblety's dad James was born. I know he was middle-aged (or even older) at the time of F's birth circa 1830-3. Would James Tumblety have been born in the 1790s?

I've found a few Tumblety's born in 1790s (with the help of feedback from Anglo-Celt request).

To Mike,
No idea where Hell's Cat is! Is it in Ireland? Must google it...

[mklhawley]

You're welcome, Siobahn.

I hesitated to post this, as it's a bit removed from
James and Margaret (Conelly) Timblety, but here's
a death certificate which states that the Timblety's
daughter Margaret was born in Dublin.



Sary Ann Amos is the grandaughter of James and Margaret (Conelly) Tumblety.

It's a long shot, but you might order some of the ten or eleven
death certificates from the children of James and Margaret
and it might list the birth place of their parents. Tumblety's
doesn't, but he died in St Louis MO far from home and most
likely alone.



It appears as if most of Francis' siblings died in NY. It takes about
4-6 weeks to acquire a death certificate from NY and the cost is
about $18, at least it was 2 years ago. This might be useful as a
last resort.

Good luck

Liv

This is from Joe Chetcuti:


In regards to Post 25 on this thread, I've been in contact with the great grandson of Sarah (Sary) Ann Amos for years now. He talked with me today and he said would like to get in email contact with Livia.


Mike could contact Livia via a private message at the Casebook, and Mike can share my email address information. Then once I hear from Livia, I could provide Livia with the great grandson's email address. Thanks.



Sincerely,

Mike

[Mayerling]

I'm sorry but in my last response I did make a mistake. When Swanson discusses Lewis Powell's attempted assassination of Secretary of State, William Seward, he does mention the doctor treating Seward (whom Powell says sent him with some medicine for the Secretary). The doctor was a Dr. Verdi. You guessed it - another odd coincident. Dr. Verdi was a cousin of the opera composer.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Hi Livia and Mike,

They may have changed the rules about birth and death certificates since I last went to the NYC Dept. of Health records. The really old certificates were gotten in the library at the Surrogate's Court House near City Hall and the "Tweed" Courthouse (which Boss Tweed had built at cost overruns of up to $14 million 1870 dollars (roughly $350-375 million today). Since you are in touch with Cora's family, have you ever contacted Hawley's. They are very picky (if you look at Hawley's gravesite on "Find-a-grave" about inquiries - they must get plenty!). I still wonder if Hawley is somehow connected to one of our astronauts, Commodore Crippen.

I imagine that Vidal's "Lincoln" was well researched, but he was a fiction writer, and dramatic license (an ironic term when dealing with a conspiracy involving an egomaniac actor and a theater setting) was very much involved here. Some of the New York newspapers did link Doc with Davy as his clerk or messanger/factotum. But whether Davy was involved in scene shifting or such is another matter. I suspect the other theater mentioned was Grover's Theater, which was where (on April 14th, 1865) Tad Lincoln was in the audience watching a play about Aladdin and his lamp. Tad heard the bad news while in the audience, and started screaming before he was taken home. His brother Robert actually was headed for Ford's Theater and saw his father being taken across the street to the Peterman House (where he'd die some nine hours later). Robert would later witness the aftermath of both Garfield's assassination and McKinley's assassination as well (and, to add to the weird set of coincidences that bedevil the Lincoln-Booth case) in November 1864, when on his way to Washington for the holidays, Robert was saved from a nearly fatal fall in front of a locomotive by Edwin Booth!

Davy Herold came to Booth's attention because of his knowledge of the trails in the forests around the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Virginia. Davy liked to hunt, and Booth figured Davy would be a first rate guide (as it turned out, others in the area helped Booth get slowly to Virginia - Davy just kept him company). A good account of the escape and capture/killing of Booth was the book "Manhunt" by James Swanson, who also wrote a good follow-up on the long funeral detail of Lincoln through the northern states, and the capture (at Irwinville, Georgia) of Jefferson Davis (who was not wearing his wife's dress - that was a lie by angry Northern newspapers).

All of which is interesting, but none deals with Doc Tumblety (the only doctor that Swanson discusses, of course, is Dr. Samuel Mudd). If the news accounts of Tumblety employing Davy Herold are true, then Davy might have arranged a meeting at some point between Tumblety and Booth, and nobody would have considered it odd - Booth being a leading celebrity of the 1860s as a star of the theater. But being introduced is not the same as exchanging confidences, and joining a conspiracy. Still one wonders why Stanton got so hot about Doc.

Jeff

[mklhawley]

As it happens, I've nearly finished re-reading Gore Vidal's
Lincoln. He has David Herold working in Thompson's Drug Store,
located just a few blocks from the White House. He also
has Herold moonlighting as a scene-shifter and general dog's
body in Ford's and another local theater. Herold, as a delivery
boy for Thompson's, has free rein to travel over the city bridge
to deliver medications, and under this cover, also acts as a
courier delivering messages to a Confederate sympathizer/
tavernkeeper in Alexandria. Herold is also a family friend of
the Surratts, a Maryland family known to Booth. Vidal has them
meeting for drinks in Willard's Hotel.

How much of this is true and how much artistic license, I don't
know.

Liv

Thanks Livia. This is excellent. Also, I'm curious about Conelly's living Dublin. James had to have met Margaret Conelly somewhere.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Livia]

Hi Jeff,

A perfect question for you. There've been multiple occasions Tumblety has been connected to a theatre or theatrical plays. This should probably be for another thread, but I wonder if Herold was in employ of Dr T when Herold was introduced to Booth. What do you think?

Mike

As it happens, I've nearly finished re-reading Gore Vidal's
Lincoln. He has David Herold working in Thompson's Drug Store,
located just a few blocks from the White House. He also
has Herold moonlighting as a scene-shifter and general dog's
body in Ford's and another local theater. Herold, as a delivery
boy for Thompson's, has free rein to travel over the city bridge
to deliver medications, and under this cover, also acts as a
courier delivering messages to a Confederate sympathizer/
tavernkeeper in Alexandria. Herold is also a family friend of
the Surratts, a Maryland family known to Booth. Vidal has them
meeting for drinks in Willard's Hotel.

How much of this is true and how much artistic license, I don't
know.

Liv

[Livia]

I had to get my mother's death certificate about two years back, and one problem is that you have to put down that you are a relative of the party you seek the information about. Of course, you might lie, but I'm not sure how it would work out.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

This is true in the case of a recent death, but for a
death that happened either in the 19th or early 20th
century, genealogy/research is an accepted reason
for most city/state governments.

I did some research on Cora (Mersinger) Crippen aka
Belle Elmore and obtained her mother's death certificate
(died 1904), to settle the Smith/Wolf issue that arose
over MSU's contested DNA results. Although I was in
contact with her descendants, I am not related to them
in any way and had no difficulty obtaining the certificate.

Liv

[mklhawley]

Hi DRoy and Mike,

As a person who is interested in the Lincoln Assassination problems as well as the Whitechapel Murders, Doc Tumblety's unique position (suspect in both cases!) fascinates me. The Doc may have eventually proved he was not cogniscent of Booth's plots, but some newspapers suggested a connection between Doc and Davy Herold. In any event, in the round-up of suspects after April 15th, 1865, Stanton really went beserk. Members of the cast of "Our American Cousin" were suspected (Booth was an actor - why did he choose that play?). As it turned out one of the stage hands, Edman Spangler, was charged as a co-conspirator, and sentenced to Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas with Dr. Mudd, Samuel Arnold, and Michael O'Laughlin.
So however scattershot the approach, Stanton did zero in on people whom there was some evidence against. As the only other serious candidate as a co-conspirator (before Dr. Tumblety got the Whitechapel limelight as well), Captain Celestine/ Celestino was the only one whom anything was really written about. Hence my question.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

A perfect question for you. There've been multiple occasions Tumblety has been connected to a theatre or theatrical plays. This should probably be for another thread, but I wonder if Herold was in employ of Dr T when Herold was introduced to Booth. What do you think?

Mike

[Mayerling]

[QUOTE=Livia;

It appears as if most of Francis' siblings died in NY. It takes about
4-6 weeks to acquire a death certificate from NY and the cost is
about $18, at least it was 2 years ago. This might be useful as a
last resort.

Good luck

Liv[/QUOTE]

I had to get my mother's death certificate about two years back, and one problem is that you have to put down that you are a relative of the party you seek the information about. Of course, you might lie, but I'm not sure how it would work out.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

DRoy,

There is nothing concrete on any suspect. Are you trying to say this should be a standard to minimalize him? He is the only suspect Assistant Commissioner Anderson was recorded to name as a Ripper suspect at the peak of the murders, not to the press, but to US Chiefs of Police. Anderson would not have gotten personally involved if they did not take him seriously. The only reason why he stopped considering him a suspect is because Tumblety was in New York City during the post-Kelly murders.

Jeff,

I do not recall anything connecting the two.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi DRoy and Mike,

As a person who is interested in the Lincoln Assassination problems as well as the Whitechapel Murders, Doc Tumblety's unique position (suspect in both cases!) fascinates me. The Doc may have eventually proved he was not cogniscent of Booth's plots, but some newspapers suggested a connection between Doc and Davy Herold. In any event, in the round-up of suspects after April 15th, 1865, Stanton really went beserk. Members of the cast of "Our American Cousin" were suspected (Booth was an actor - why did he choose that play?). As it turned out one of the stage hands, Edman Spangler, was charged as a co-conspirator, and sentenced to Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas with Dr. Mudd, Samuel Arnold, and Michael O'Laughlin.
So however scattershot the approach, Stanton did zero in on people whom there was some evidence against. As the only other serious candidate as a co-conspirator (before Dr. Tumblety got the Whitechapel limelight as well), Captain Celestine/ Celestino was the only one whom anything was really written about. Hence my question.

Jeff

[Livia]

You're welcome, Siobahn.

I hesitated to post this, as it's a bit removed from
James and Margaret (Conelly) Timblety, but here's
a death certificate which states that the Timblety's
daughter Margaret was born in Dublin.



Sary Ann Amos is the grandaughter of James and Margaret (Conelly) Tumblety.

It's a long shot, but you might order some of the ten or eleven
death certificates from the children of James and Margaret
and it might list the birth place of their parents. Tumblety's
doesn't, but he died in St Louis MO far from home and most
likely alone.



It appears as if most of Francis' siblings died in NY. It takes about
4-6 weeks to acquire a death certificate from NY and the cost is
about $18, at least it was 2 years ago. This might be useful as a
last resort.

Good luck

Liv

[mklhawley]

Thanks Siobhan. Far from it, but I have researched enough to see glaring misconceptions still fester in the minds of experts.


By the way, some day my plan is to visit the Cave of the Cats. My celtic ancestry mandates a pilgrimage to Hell's gate. Put it on your calendar!

Mike