Tumblety & Prostitutes

[mklhawley]

Mike,

Just looking at the excerpts you've posted, i would say this is absolutely wrong.


The Chinese worker were said to have been lower than the most degraded of his (America's) prostitutes. In fact this means that he held the most degraded of the prostitutes and not, one supposes, the vast majority of prostitutes, in higher esteem than the Chinese of which he was speaking. I believe this would have been a common comparison when talking about those one deems to be absolute riff-raff. I see nothing in this particular piece, and especially considering the era.

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,
Good point; it’s just that it doesn’t take Tumblety’s writing style into account. Tumblety was complaining to Caine about the Chinese, and to emphasize his point of how low they are, he compared them to something Tumblety believed to be very low. One should read Neil Story’s book and see how Tumblety embellished things to the extreme when complaining, as he did when comparing Chinese to prostitutes. For example,

“The proprietor of that filthy sheet ‘The Leader’ is the Champion Black Mailer of England. He is on of the most infamous scoundrels ever vomited upon the earth from the basement story of hell… He is worse than the Colorado potato beetle."

He used the prostitute like he used the Colorado potato beetle. I’d say the earlier article showed what he thought about prostitutes.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Howard Brown]

Mike :

If its okay with you, I'd prefer to wait until your article appears before rollin' around in the hay over the issue.
I understand that you feel that the article ( Sheffield) provides an example of your original statement, of which I started a thread over yonder in Hellville....

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....564#post197564

" ( Tumblety) exhibited erratic behavior with unfortunates (according to a few accounts) Mike Hawley
"With" prostitutes as in being in actual contact with them, rather than talking trash about them from a distance with his male friends. The newspaper article and the Caine letter don't demonstrate Tumblety being in contact with them on a physical basis. Perhaps you'd care to rephrase the italicized line.
As I said, I'm looking forward to your article

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

Just looking at the excerpts you've posted, i would say this is absolutely wrong.

…and he did it by comparing them to the lowest of low in his mind; prostitutes. You even said it, “dregs in Tumblety’s mind”. This certainly does show how Tumblety felt about prostitutes.

The Chinese worker were said to have been lower than the most degraded of his (America's) prostitutes. In fact this means that he held the most degraded of the prostitutes and not, one supposes, the vast majority of prostitutes, in higher esteem than the Chinese of which he was speaking. I believe this would have been a common comparison when talking about those one deems to be absolute riff-raff. I see nothing in this particular piece, and especially considering the era.

Cheers,

Mike

[mklhawley]

I appreciate you going to the trouble with this, Mike.

Howard,

I don’t mind you giving me your best shot, even if you mixed it with a touch of rhetoric. You call it a ‘belief system on my part’ and I call it ‘denial’ on your part. The goal here is to discover the truth.

I would remind one and all that the Boston newspaper excerpt is really proof of nothing , although the person the newspaper is suggesting to have been all those things...roughhouse with the ladies, etc....in my opinion, is Tumblety.

We have to clarify. This article is not a Boston newspaper excerpt. First, it was the New York correspondent of the Daily Telegraph who initiated this. Your mistake is that the first story took place in Boston. Second, it states, “It is reported by cable from Europe”. The origins of this story took place in London.

Allow me to respond to your post in this way...using Tumblety's letter to Caine :

1..."The Chinamen are as nasty as Locust, they devour everything they come across, rats and cats, and all sorts of decomposed vegetable matter, they are a species of the Digger Indian.

2..." Grass hopper is a luxury which they partake with delight. This is not all, the Chinese that are now being landed on the Pacific shelf are of the lowest order. In morals and obscenity they are far below those of our most degraded prostitutes. Their women are bought and sold, for the usual purposes and they are used to decoy youths of the most tender age, into these dens, for the purpose of exhibiting their nude and disgusting person to the hitherto innocent youths of the cities."

3. In Tumblety’s own words, it shows his prejudice, his misogynist ideology, and his disgust of prostitutes. I then present in my article a new find from a contemporary British newspaper
*************************

Far be it from me to appear as if I am dismissive or rude to someone's sincere belief system, and Mike is a Ripperologist with a sincere belief system which includes Tumblety at the top of the list in terms of the killer's identity.

A belief system is a product of the limbic system, i.e., emotionally accepting as true regardless of the facts. I’m not sure where you’ve been but the publication of some of my research (part one and two of the Dunham articles, Tumblety’s rings, Chamber of Horrors, and the Woman Hater article (a couple yet to be published)) was the product of me researching the facts behind published claims, mostly anti-Tumblety claims, and discovering blatant mistakes. Which part of this is baseless in fact?

With all due respect to Mike's views, I fail to see how the letter from Tumblety to Caine is indicative of an association with prostitutes or problems with prostitutes in a one on one confrontation...which is, after all, what I was asking Mike to provide since he said he had evidence of Tumblety & prostitutes together. This excerpt does not suggest that to me, while I leave the reader to make their decision whether it does.

This is where you begin to move the goalposts.

1. The sentiments regarding those Chinese who came to the United States were sentiments directed towards Chinese who either were unemployed in their native land or unemployable.. the wretched refuse from China. We're not talking about the artisan class from China, nor the mercantile class...but the proletarian from Peking, ...

Tumblety's comparison between Chinese & a tribe of American Indians, known as the Diggers ( from California ), are milquetoast compared to the honest and factual observations made by Mark Twain around the same time.
Before any one goes cuckoo for cocoapuffs and claims that Twain was a racist, it needs mentioning that he favored abolition, woman's rights & the emancipation of negroes..paying out of pocket for one negro to attend Yale Law School and frankly was rather left-wing in his political views, supporting the overthrow of the Tzar in the 1880's.
The remarks about Chinese do not reflect a specific prejudice towards Asiatics, but an appraisal of a class of Chinese, the dregs in Tumblety's mind who were "despoiling his country" with their low regard ( Actually, the Chinese were the misogynists, not Tumblety...he didn't bind their feet and make them walk behind their husbands ) for things he held in high regard.

…and he did it by comparing them to the lowest of low in his mind; prostitutes. You even said it, “dregs in Tumblety’s mind”. This certainly does show how Tumblety felt about prostitutes.

2. Mike claims that the remarks made about prostitutes show a misogynist ideology. This is simply untrue, to say the least. Evidently Mike has forgotten about the charming little infomercial Tumblety conducted with the New York World in early 1889, where Tumblety just happened to have a poem from one of his female clients upon his person ( one of the old dowagers he schmoozed with his sales pitches ) which he sprang upon the reporter in the interview.

And you believe him? It’s interesting how Tumblety detractors claim Tumblety always lied, accept of course this time. Once you finally do read my Tumblety the Woman Hater article, you’ll see that I don’t base my conclusion of Tumblety’s misogynist ideology upon these remarks. I don’t even use these remarks for that purpose.

I would gamble a hefty bet that Mike or any other healthy minded man on this site or JTRForums thinks very little about street prostitutes in this "enlightened" age. The gap between prostitute and non-prostitute, in terms of social acceptance today, may be closer than its ever been....but clearly in the mid to late 1800's in the White world, this gap was far more expansive...and every man, even the hypocritical males who traipsed down to see a prostitute for sum o' dat stuff on a Saturday night, but were on time for Church on Sunday morning, considered them degraded, whether they were homosexuals like Tumblety or heterosexuals. This is not misogyny in any way, shape, or form and a dislike of prostitutes, which I'm wagering Mike harbors, as I do, himself, doesn't make him a misogynist, nor does it make one of me.

This is actually irrelevant. Not everyone was called a ‘woman hater’ by multiple sources like Tumblety was, and then to have a sitting Scotland Yard Chief Inspector corroborate this by stating, “his feelings toward women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record.”

Mike is inferring that Tumblety, since he "hated" prostitutes, could and in Mike's mind, did do harm to them. Other than vigorously shaking a woman's hand, that's about as close as the big buffoon got to harming any woman...or prostitute. Unless, of course, he was distributing an abortifacient.
I originally asked Mike and anyone else whether they had an article which demonstrated Tumblety having a confrontation with a prostitute.
This letter, which I'm glad Mike shared with everyone and appreciative of the gesture, doesn't do that.

You just moved the goalposts. You originally asked, “Is there a source which has surfaced recently which shows that Tumblety had any dealing with prostitutes?” The British article stated, “…who has repeatedly made threats against females of dissolute character.” I would call that ‘dealings’ with prostitutes. Remember, I do have more coming.

This legend of Tumblety being excessively mean spirited to women ( Not mean spirited enough to not do business with them though )....reminds me of Paul Revere in a sense.
Everyone knows Revere said or something close to, "The British are coming"....but most don't know what he did for a living.

Using the word ‘legend’ is pure rhetoric, and again irrelevant. This issue was not in your original question, although I’d be glad to discuss this, as well.

Tumblety was a businessman, a shady one at that without question.
To use a discussion he may have had or even discussions (plural ) he had with other men as an indicator of a hatred of women is overlooking the probable real reason for his negative, privately made statements about the distaff sex..

You haven’t even read my article, and you claim I did this? Well, you missed the mark.

It would explain, IMHO, why he was, despite his fine presence, his well groomed appearance, albeit outlandish, the ostentatiousness, flash, & expensive shiny boots which the ladies just love, never seen with them in public like a man of that preening should be ,in their minds.

Looking forward to your article, Mike.

I'm not so sure you will, Howard. It debunks a few conclusions that you've embraced, conclusions that we now know were based upon incomplete evidence. But that's not what your original question was. Maybe my next post will help clarify things.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Howard Brown]

I appreciate you going to the trouble with this, Mike.
I would remind one and all that the Boston newspaper excerpt is really proof of nothing , although the person the newspaper is suggesting to have been all those things...roughhouse with the ladies, etc....in my opinion, is Tumblety.

Allow me to respond to your post in this way...using Tumblety's letter to Caine :

1..."The Chinamen are as nasty as Locust, they devour everything they come across, rats and cats, and all sorts of decomposed vegetable matter, they are a species of the Digger Indian.

2..." Grass hopper is a luxury which they partake with delight. This is not all, the Chinese that are now being landed on the Pacific shelf are of the lowest order. In morals and obscenity they are far below those of our most degraded prostitutes. Their women are bought and sold, for the usual purposes and they are used to decoy youths of the most tender age, into these dens, for the purpose of exhibiting their nude and disgusting person to the hitherto innocent youths of the cities."

3. In Tumblety’s own words, it shows his prejudice, his misogynist ideology, and his disgust of prostitutes. I then present in my article a new find from a contemporary British newspaper
*************************

Far be it from me to appear as if I am dismissive or rude to someone's sincere belief system, and Mike is a Ripperologist with a sincere belief system which includes Tumblety at the top of the list in terms of the killer's identity.

With all due respect to Mike's views, I fail to see how the letter from Tumblety to Caine is indicative of an association with prostitutes or problems with prostitutes in a one on one confrontation...which is, after all, what I was asking Mike to provide since he said he had evidence of Tumblety & prostitutes together. This excerpt does not suggest that to me, while I leave the reader to make their decision whether it does.

1. The sentiments regarding those Chinese who came to the United States were sentiments directed towards Chinese who either were unemployed in their native land or unemployable.. the wretched refuse from China. We're not talking about the artisan class from China, nor the mercantile class...but the proletarian from Peking, ...

Tumblety's comparison between Chinese & a tribe of American Indians, known as the Diggers ( from California ), are milquetoast compared to the honest and factual observations made by Mark Twain around the same time.
Before any one goes cuckoo for cocoapuffs and claims that Twain was a racist, it needs mentioning that he favored abolition, woman's rights & the emancipation of negroes..paying out of pocket for one negro to attend Yale Law School and frankly was rather left-wing in his political views, supporting the overthrow of the Tzar in the 1880's.
The remarks about Chinese do not reflect a specific prejudice towards Asiatics, but an appraisal of a class of Chinese, the dregs in Tumblety's mind who were "despoiling his country" with their low regard ( Actually, the Chinese were the misogynists, not Tumblety...he didn't bind their feet and make them walk behind their husbands ) for things he held in high regard.

2. Mike claims that the remarks made about prostitutes show a misogynist ideology. This is simply untrue, to say the least. Evidently Mike has forgotten about the charming little infomercial Tumblety conducted with the New York World in early 1889, where Tumblety just happened to have a poem from one of his female clients upon his person ( one of the old dowagers he schmoozed with his sales pitches ) which he sprang upon the reporter in the interview.

I would gamble a hefty bet that Mike or any other healthy minded man on this site or JTRForums thinks very little about street prostitutes in this "enlightened" age. The gap between prostitute and non-prostitute, in terms of social acceptance today, may be closer than its ever been....but clearly in the mid to late 1800's in the White world, this gap was far more expansive...and every man, even the hypocritical males who traipsed down to see a prostitute for sum o' dat stuff on a Saturday night, but were on time for Church on Sunday morning, considered them degraded, whether they were homosexuals like Tumblety or heterosexuals. This is not misogyny in any way, shape, or form and a dislike of prostitutes, which I'm wagering Mike harbors, as I do, himself, doesn't make him a misogynist, nor does it make one of me.

Mike is inferring that Tumblety, since he "hated" prostitutes, could and in Mike's mind, did do harm to them. Other than vigorously shaking a woman's hand, that's about as close as the big buffoon got to harming any woman...or prostitute. Unless, of course, he was distributing an abortifacient.
I originally asked Mike and anyone else whether they had an article which demonstrated Tumblety having a confrontation with a prostitute.
This letter, which I'm glad Mike shared with everyone and appreciative of the gesture, doesn't do that.

This legend of Tumblety being excessively mean spirited to women ( Not mean spirited enough to not do business with them though )....reminds me of Paul Revere in a sense.
Everyone knows Revere said or something close to, "The British are coming"....but most don't know what he did for a living.
Tumblety was a businessman, a shady one at that without question.
To use a discussion he may have had or even discussions (plural ) he had with other men as an indicator of a hatred of women is overlooking the probable real reason for his negative, privately made statements about the distaff sex..
It would explain, IMHO, why he was, despite his fine presence, his well groomed appearance, albeit outlandish, the ostentatiousness, flash, & expensive shiny boots which the ladies just love, never seen with them in public like a man of that preening should be ,in their minds.

Looking forward to your article, Mike.

[mklhawley]

Tumblety the Woman Hater

Greetings all,

I delayed this response until now, because I wanted to wait for the next issue of the Whitechapel Society Journal to come out, which has just happened at the Society’s East End meeting at Aldgate Exchange Pub. In it, they have graciously published my next article, called ‘Tumblety the Woman Hater’, which –among other things- thoroughly examines the use of the phrase, woman hater, in the late nineteenth century. In short, Francis Tumblety had an unusual hatred of women and his homosexuality had nothing to do with him being a significant Whitechapel murder suspect, even in the eyes of Chief Inspector Littlechild. Also, the argument that homosexual serial killers only kill males is irrelevant in Tumblety’s case. In the article, I present new information on Tumblety and his ‘dealings’ with prostitutes, which Howard has asked about. My suspicion is that Howard is asking this question, because an out-of-date anti-Tumblety argument claims that there are no credible accounts connecting Francis Tumblety to Jack the Ripper’s chosen victims, prostitutes. We now know this to be untrue.

Joe Chetcuti has already responded to this question and presented some of the new information Jack the Ripper Writers website: http://ripperwriters.aforumfree.com/...-s-noticeboard

I would like to reinforce a point Joe made. In Neil Storey’s newly published book, The Dracula Secrets: Jack the Ripper and the Darkest Sources of Bram Stoker, Storey reveals twenty new letters written by Tumblety to Caine. Note a point Tumblety wrote to Caine,

"The Chinamen are as nasty as Locust, they devour everything they come across, rats and cats, and all sorts of decomposed vegetable matter, they are a species of the Digger Indian. Grass hopper is a luxury which they partake with delight. This is not all, the Chinese that are now being landed on the Pacific shelf are of the lowest order. In morals and obscenity they are far below those of our most degraded prostitutes. Their women are bought and sold, for the usual purposes and they are used to decoy youths of the most tender age, into these dens, for the purpose of exhibiting their nude and disgusting person to the hitherto innocent youths of the cities."

In Tumblety’s own words, it shows his prejudice, his misogynist ideology, and his disgust of prostitutes. I then present in my article a new find from a contemporary British newspaper:

It is reported by cable from Europe that a certain person, whose name is known, has sailed from Havre for New York, who is famous for his hatred of women, and who has repeatedly made threats against females of dissolute character. (Sheffield and Rottherdam Independent, December 5, 1888)



There was only one American Jack the Ripper suspect who left the country at that particular time and sailed from Havre to New York and was famous for his hatred of women; Francis Tumblety. Posters had presented versions of this Daily Telegraph news cable dispatch in the past, but those versions did not contain the phrase, ‘repeatedly made threats against females of dissolute character’. Interestingly, the British report modified the making of threats with ‘repeatedly’, pointing out that Tumblety’s interactions with prostitutes was not just one threatening event. Not only did Francis Tumblety have a hatred of prostitutes, but he also acted upon this hatred with multiple threats overt enough to catch the eye of Scotland Yard.

It should now become clear why Chief Inspector Littlechild singled out Tumblety’s bitter feelings towards women, knowledge he was privy to in November 1888, as evidenced by him stating, “A FACT ON RECORD”. Just as the British article states, this man had a hatred of the very same type of woman Jack the Ripper was killing, and he was acting on his hatred repeatedly. It certainly was serious enough for Assistant Commissioner Anderson to personally request information from US Chiefs of Police on Tumblety with respect to the murders that very month.

I have more, but I do not want the next examples to overshadow this significant material.

Sincerely,
Mike

[mklhawley]

Greetings all,

Howard Brown has asked a very good question:

Mike Hawley made a remark elsewhere, which some of you might be able to substantiate.

Mike said on the 44th post :
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7396&page=5

" ( Tumblety) exhibited erratic behavior with unfortunates (according to a few accounts)."

Is there a source which has surfaced recently which shows that Tumblety had any dealing with prostitutes ? Mike says there are a few accounts....

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17815

Hi Howard, yes, but do you mind if I answer this in April? I planned on starting a thread anyway, so this'll be it.

Sincerely,

Mike