Newly Discovered Tumblety Photo

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Yes, there is more to the story, but it's not mine to say. Either they are both photos of Tumblety or Storey's is.

The photographs are obviously of two different men so they aren't both of Tumblety. Until some actual proof is offered (as opposed to conjecture) as to where the photo that appeared in Storey's book came from AND, more importantly, why it is supposed to be a photo of Francis Tumblety; AND exactly why it doesn't match Tumblety's own photo of himself; AND why Henry Carr's father used Tumblety's photo in a Court of Law to identify Tumblety if it wasn't an actual photo of him, then Storey's photo must be considered to be of someone else. The existing evidence and provenance sides with Tumblety's own picture of himself being genuine.

Wolf.

[mklhawley]

Storey’s book only says that the supposed photo of Tumblety comes from a “Private Collection.” Absolutely no other attribution beyond this is given. He certainly doesn’t state that the photo once belonged to Hall Cain or that it was a gift to Cain from Tumblety.

Nemo, who was at the recent conference where Storey spoke about his book, talked to Storey about the photo and he said that he remembered thinking that it had a better provenance than the one from Tim’s book and that it might have come from some of Hall Cain’s records but he wasn’t actually sure that he was remembering this correctly (this was posted on Howard’s site).

I’m curious, therefore, as to where the information that the photo came from Cain’s “private collection” comes from. Has Storey stated somewhere that he did find the photo in some records of Hall Cain’s?



As for the photo that appeared on the cover of Tumblety’s 1871 biography, this is undoubtedly a picture of Tumblety. Tumblety mentions the photo in the text and describes what he’s wearing – a Prussian officers uniform. Would a man like Tumblety, who was very well known across North America and beyond, use a fake photograph of himself and open himself up to derision when many people knew exactly what he looked like?

More importantly, in 1873, when Henry Carr appeared before a police magistrate in London for unlawful ownership of Tumblety’s gold watch chain, Carr’s father produced a copy of the bio in court and, showing the photo of Tumblety on the cover to the judge, stated that this was a photo of the man who had “decoyed his son away.” We know, therefore, that the photo is of Tumblety and not some younger, good looking model.

Wolf.

Hi Wolf,

Yes, there is more to the story, but it's not mine to say. Either they are both photos of Tumblety or Storey's is.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Cogidubnus]

You're quite right Barbara...let's put this delicately...these two pictures cannot possibly be of the same person unless there has been a considerable degree of plastic surgery...which is something Siobhan raised way back...One or another of the pictures is clearly a ringer...

Can anybody offer any elucidation?

All the best

Dave

[Beowulf]

Wonder how he grew earlobes, then

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

“Storey's Tumblety photo came from Sir Thomas Henry Hall Caine's private collection.” (mklhawley post #15)

“…the one on the left ultimately came from Hall Caine (private gift from Tumblety)” (mklhawley post #21)

Storey’s book only says that the supposed photo of Tumblety comes from a “Private Collection.” Absolutely no other attribution beyond this is given. He certainly doesn’t state that the photo once belonged to Hall Cain or that it was a gift to Cain from Tumblety.

Nemo, who was at the recent conference where Storey spoke about his book, talked to Storey about the photo and he said that he remembered thinking that it had a better provenance than the one from Tim’s book and that it might have come from some of Hall Cain’s records but he wasn’t actually sure that he was remembering this correctly (this was posted on Howard’s site).

I’m curious, therefore, as to where the information that the photo came from Cain’s “private collection” comes from. Has Storey stated somewhere that he did find the photo in some records of Hall Cain’s?

“I would not put it past the untrustworthy Tumblety to have used a young handsome model for the picture." (mklhawley post #15)

“Knowing how deceptive Tumblety was, my bet is the photo… on the right is a model making Dr. T look good for the public.” (mklhawley post #21)

As for the photo that appeared on the cover of Tumblety’s 1871 biography, this is undoubtedly a picture of Tumblety. Tumblety mentions the photo in the text and describes what he’s wearing – a Prussian officers uniform. Would a man like Tumblety, who was very well known across North America and beyond, use a fake photograph of himself and open himself up to derision when many people knew exactly what he looked like?

More importantly, in 1873, when Henry Carr appeared before a police magistrate in London for unlawful ownership of Tumblety’s gold watch chain, Carr’s father produced a copy of the bio in court and, showing the photo of Tumblety on the cover to the judge, stated that this was a photo of the man who had “decoyed his son away.” We know, therefore, that the photo is of Tumblety and not some younger, good looking model.

Wolf.

[moonbegger]

Hello all ,

Earlobes, eyebrows , eyelids ???

moonbegger.

[mklhawley]

Hi Beowulf,

I have absolutely no argument with your observations. The photo on the right ultimately came from Tumblety (advertising his book) and the one on the left ultimately came from Hall Caine (private gift from Tumblety), who knew exactly what Tumblety looked like. Knowing how deceptive Tumblety was, my bet is the photo on the left is him and the one on the right is a model making Dr. T look good for the public.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Beowulf]

See the eyebrows, they are different.

Also, the man in the 'new' photo has not got earlobes.

[Beowulf]

The photo of Tumblety in military uniform and the 'new' photo of him have different eyebrow shapes as compared to each other.

See the eyebrows, they are different.

[Beowulf]

So while I definitely see a resemblance between the known photo and Neil's newly-discovered photo, I'd hope for some kind of confirming documentation. What do you think?

The photo of Tumblety in military uniform and the 'new' photo of him have different eyebrow shapes as compared to each other.

[Bridewell]

Southpaw?

Oh come on.

The paper is held in the right hand.

The left hand is clenched and not touching the paper.

I think it's a moot point whether or not the left hand is in contact with the paper in a two-dimensional image and if you can say that the gloved left hand is 'clenched' your eyesight must be better than mine.

Indulge me. Pass a newspaper to an unbriefed third party and ask them to read something from it. I'll wager that the dominant hand will be at the bottom of the paper and the non-dominant hand at the top.

I don't think it's an important issue, and I acknowledge that it's a posed photograph, but it doesn't strike me as the natural way for a right-handed person to hold a document. I'm not looking for an argument. If the consensus of opinion is that MJD was right-handed, that's fine by me.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Thanks for posting Mike.
Tumblety (born circa 1831-3) would be in his early to mid 40s in this picture circa 1875. He looks incredibly young. Move forward a decade or so to 1888 and he may well have looked much younger than his years - just thinking of eye witness descriptions of the Ripper being (mainly 30s to 40s age bracket) when Tumblety would in actuality have been mid 50s.

Also, Tumblety obviously had a very strange body shape. If he was indeed over 6 feet tall as many assert then he had impossibly narrow shoulders for his height! Just look at the proportion of his shoulders to his head size and then imagine his lanky body. Yipes. What a human specimen!

I can understand why he had a penchant for padded shoulders/ military style coats ...to hide his hideous body shape.

A woman's perspective. Forgive me.

[mklhawley]

I bought and read this book soon after it came out and have been wondering about the provenance of this photo since I first saw it.

Very little is made of the photo in the book.

Looking at the two pictures now, it seems that the Riorden Tumblety has lobed ears, whereas Storey's Tumblety does not.

Hi DGB,

I noticed that, too. If they are not the same person, here are my thoughts. Riordan's Tumblety photo was pasted onto the front cover of Tumblety's 1871 autobiography, which makes him look far younger with a thinner face than the picture Dr. Watson showed in the earlier post (#7). Tumblety's 1866 autobiography had the picture of Tumblety being 'wrongly' arrested, while his 1872 autobiography had an engraving of him in a different uniform than his 1871 photo, with a total of five medals and he looked older and heavier.

In my opinion, we can be assured that the 1871 photo came from Tumblety himself, but keep in mind, he was notorious for having others write his letters. Tumblety was known for waxing his mustache in later life in order to give the impression of having a black mustache, probably to keep a youthful look. I would not put it past the untrustworthy Tumblety to have used a young handsome model for the picture.

Storey's Tumblety photo came from Sir Thomas Henry Hall Caine's private collection. Hall Caine had an intimate relationship with Tumblety from 1874 to 1876. This was meant for his boyfriend Hall Caine; a man who clearly knew what Tumblety looked like.

Sincerely,

Mike

[DGB]

I bought and read this book soon after it came out and have been wondering about the provenance of this photo since I first saw it.

Very little is made of the photo in the book.

Looking at the two pictures now, it seems that the Riorden Tumblety has lobed ears, whereas Storey's Tumblety does not.

[Stephen Thomas]

Was Tumblety known to be left-handed? The way he's holding the document (in the military photo) would be unnatural to me as a right-hander.

Oh come on.

The paper is held in the right hand.

The left hand is clenched and not touching the paper.