Was Tumblety in Jail during the Kelly Murder?

[Natasha]

I have to wonder, if in order to clear himself as a Ripper suspect, he was basically forced to admit his homosexual activities and provide the police with the names of the men he was with on those nights if indeed that was his alibi.

c.d.

Hi C.D

I agree with that, how would the police know otherwise? It was a criminal offence after all and not something that Tumblety would want to broadcast unless it involved clearing his name perhaps.

[c.d.]

Hello Natasha,

I think we could basically ask that same question of any suspect and all we would be able to do is speculate as to the answer.

c.d.

[Natasha]

Hi John,

You and I are not that far off, with the exception of being quite convinced he was not the Ripper. For me, 'quite convinced' is too much. Assistant Commissioner Anderson was convinced enough to get personally involved and Littlechild was quite convinced. They knew more than we'll ever know. Once the McKenzie murder occurred, he fell off Scotland Yard's radar screen (since he was in New York). If we except that Kelly was the last, the murders stopped once he left. Him being homosexual is irrelevant in this case, since, if he did murder, his motive (or motives) was not sado-sexual. He would not have continued killing in America, again because his motive was not sado-sexual. For me, my research suggests that his hatred of women was not a motive (it just made it easier). I see two other motives... if he was JtR.

Sincerely,

Mike

Hi Mike

What motives would Tumblety have for killing these women?

[c.d.]

I have to wonder, if in order to clear himself as a Ripper suspect, he was basically forced to admit his homosexual activities and provide the police with the names of the men he was with on those nights if indeed that was his alibi.

c.d.

[Hunter]

Just for a bit of clarity... Littlechild was convinced of what exactly?

[mklhawley]

Hi John,

You and I are not that far off, with the exception of being quite convinced he was not the Ripper. For me, 'quite convinced' is too much. Assistant Commissioner Anderson was convinced enough to get personally involved and Littlechild was quite convinced. They knew more than we'll ever know. Once the McKenzie murder occurred, he fell off Scotland Yard's radar screen (since he was in New York). If we except that Kelly was the last, the murders stopped once he left. Him being homosexual is irrelevant in this case, since, if he did murder, his motive (or motives) was not sado-sexual. He would not have continued killing in America, again because his motive was not sado-sexual. For me, my research suggests that his hatred of women was not a motive (it just made it easier). I see two other motives... if he was JtR.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Dr. John Watson]

Having researched Tumblety myself for some time, I'm quite convinced he had nothing to do with the Ripper murders, but it's equally clear that London police had him in their sights, perhaps as early as July of 1888. The fact that officers were able to identify, by name and date, four young men allegedly assaulted by Tumblety between July and November of that year, suggests that he was under at least periodic surveillance during that period. Officers likely observed the alleged offenses and discretely interviewed the four men afterward, securing their cooperation as witnesses against him. [Similar tactics were used by detectives in the Cleveland Street case.] The fact Tumblety wasn't arrested earlier suggests the surveillance was probably related to more than suspicion of moral offenses, for example his supposed connection with Fennian causes and/or as a Ripper suspect, as now seems likely.

Incidentally, Tumblety did not frighten easily. Physically he was a large man, over six feet, and there is ample evidence of his willingness to venture into rough areas after dark and defend himself if necessary. He wasn't afraid of police or going to court either, as his well-publicized scrapes with the law in America will attest. His quick departure from London was occasioned by the realization that he would likely go to jail on the morals charges - not because he feared prosecution as the Ripper.

John

[Robert]

Hi Natasha

I agree that Jack would have got down to work straight away - no singsongs or anything else. But I think the blood on the window was an error in reporting.

[Natasha]

There was no guarantee that the killer would not be disturbed at any of the murder sites. Some would say there's evidence that he was in some cases.

Hi Hunter

I agree the other sites were very risky, but killing someone indoors would be riskier, as there would be very limited escape routes.

[Natasha]

Apparently the door is one of those that locks when you close it shut. Kelly was opening it using the broken window by putting her hand in through (in front of customers it seems too).

Hi Batman

I am aware of that but my main point is that he would need to know how to gain access into the room. The fact that the police never made a connection with the window and the opening of the door, suggests that someone knew how to gain access.

If she let someone in, I suspect he would have killed her as soon as possible, based on the blitz style attack (if he was the ripper) that he demonstrated in previous attacks. The blitz style attack would make it easier to avoid eliciting any noise like any small talk that may be heard by the neighbours, how would he know for sure that they were asleep?

I don't believe she let someone in. Having been drinking, and in her nighty and the fire being out would suggest to me that she was ready to sleep.

I know there was blood on the broken window, I think it possible that it belonged to the ripper.

[Hunter]

The killer would need to know for certain that he would not be disturbed.

There was no guarantee that the killer would not be disturbed at any of the murder sites. Some would say there's evidence that he was in some cases.

[Batman]

Hi All
Personally I don't think Tumblety was the ripper. he had an egotistical nature and his motivations were financially driven. I feel that Kelly's murder was organised. It appears to have been planned. The key was missing, the people that usually resided there, Barnett, friends etc were not there. The killer would need to know for certain that he would not be disturbed.

Apparently the door is one of those that locks when you close it shut. Kelly was opening it using the broken window by putting her hand in through (in front of customers it seems too).

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Not at all.

Tumblety was in court that day.

Regards,

Simon

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

Any ideas about why on Monday 19th November 1888 the Treasury [the Crown] requested a postponement of the Tumblety gross indecency case until the December Sessions?

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Happy New Year. Some ideas. I see it having absolutely nothing to do with the Ripper case. When Anderson solicited information from US chiefs of police around that same day, it was specific to the Ripper murders. The gross indecency case was a London thing. In view of this, maybe they wanted more time to tighten up the case. Tumblety was already in court a few times in England and Scotland Yard would have had record of this, even involving gross indecency. Each time, he slipped away.

Were you thinking it was because they couldn't find him?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mike,

Any ideas about why on Monday 19th November 1888 the Treasury [the Crown] requested a postponement of the Tumblety gross indecency case until the December Sessions?

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Simon