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Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis > Could Tumblety Have Been Extradited?
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cd4th January 2007, 08:51 PM
I don't know the answer to this question. If Scotland Yard had charged Tumblety with murder in connection with the Ripper killings, could he, as an American citizen, been extradited to England to stand trial? Would it have to have been an official charge of murder as opposed to suspicion of murder?
c.d.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
timothy5th January 2007, 02:57 PM
Hi c.d.,
Extradition from the US to Britain was, at the time, covered by the Ashburton Treaty (1842) which listed the following extraditable offenses: murder, assault with intent to commit murder, piracy, arson, robbery, forgery. One could be extradited for those crimes only if one were actually charged with them, not just as a suspect.
Best,
Tim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cd5th January 2007, 03:42 PM
Hi Tim,
Thanks for that information. I have always felt that there could have been a way to bring Tumblety back to England had they really wanted to. But Tumblety was a litigious s.o.b. and they would have had a lawsuit on there hands no doubt. Plus (and this is pure speculation) given his alleged Fenian ties, Scotland Yard might have been afraid there would be a Fenian backlash.
c.d.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mwr7th January 2007, 12:37 PM
Hello all,
Tim's point about being charged with the offense before extradition could happen is relevant here because I dont believe that there is imperical proof he was in fact charged with anything other than the indecency violation, is there?
If I recall he was arrested Nov 7th on the indecency charges, scheduled to appear at at hearing on those charges 7 days later, then possibly released on bail 24 hours later, .... the rumoured charges on suspicion were around the 12th. He never was re-arrested though to my memory, and did not attend the hearing on the 14th either.
I did read that Scotland Yard dispatched 2 officers to follow "Mr Frank Townsend", the good doctor, as he sailed for New York cd....and although Ive heard that story can be discredited, if true, they may have tried to arrest him on charges relating to the crimes. Had they intended that, and had they caught him in New York they would be within their rights to bring him back with them.
Cheers all,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie11th January 2007, 07:55 PM
Hi all
Tumblety was linked to the assassination of Lincoln, and was arrested at the time for being a co-conspirator. He subsequently got released.
His string of dodgy exploits would have been known in the U.S. by the goverment keeping tabs.
Maybe once he was back in the U.S. The American authorities wanted to keep an eye on him for their own reasons.
He does after all have a record for jumping from place to place when the heat is on.
The fenian links are quite convincing for Scotland yard to tail him to America, but mysteriously not mentioned in any correspondance except the Littlechild letter.
A look at the Special Branch files would clear this link (if only!)
cheers
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celee19th January 2007, 04:30 AM
Hi all
Tumblety was linked to the assassination of Lincoln, and was arrested at the time for being a co-conspirator. He subsequently got released.
cheers
Richard
Hi Richard,
Is that a fact that Tumblety was arrested as a co-conspirator in the Lincoln assasination? I have read were people have raised some doubts. I have also read that Tumblety had a male friend that was one of the four hung. Do you know if this is true, and did Tumblety stay at the same bording house of some of the conspirators? The same house that the woman who was hung ran? I am not claiming that any of this is true. I would just like to get some answers from someone who knows.
If Tumblety had been charged with the Kelly murder, he could have been sent back to England. However, he was not and the charge against him was not extraditable. So the question I have is, if he was followed to Newyork by the Yard, then what were they going to do to him when they got there? Were they going to bring him back?
Your friend, Brad
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie19th January 2007, 07:38 PM
Hi Richard,
Is that a fact that Tumblety was arrested as a co-conspirator in the Lincoln assasination? I have read were people have raised some doubts. I have also read that Tumblety had a male friend that was one of the four hung. Do you know if this is true, and did Tumblety stay at the same bording house of some of the conspirators? The same house that the woman who was hung ran? I am not claiming that any of this is true. I would just like to get some answers from someone who knows.
If Tumblety had been charged with the Kelly murder, he could have been sent back to England. However, he was not and the charge against him was not extraditable. So the question I have is, if he was followed to Newyork by the Yard, then what were they going to do to him when they got there? Were they going to bring him back?
Hi Brad
It appears that Tumbblety was mistaken for a 'Dr Luke Pryor Blackburn' .
This although appears on the face of it - a honest mistake, it wasn't helped by Tumblety actually using 'Dr J H Blackburn' as one of his aliases at the time.
The fact that he was arrested is almost certain as for one he made a big point of it at the time & His arrest was published in the Missouri Republican, Washinton Star & New York Herald also.
Quote from the M.R.
A sensation was produced in police circles yesterday, by the arrest of the famous Indian herb doctor, J. H. Blackburn, alias Tumblety. He was arrested at his office on Third Street, opposite the Post Office, by a United States policeman, and is charged, as it is stated, with some knowledge of complicity in the late assassination of President Lincoln.
We are not informed of the grounds of the suspicion under which he has fallen. He is said to have been a former partner of Herold's, in Brooklyn, New York. A few facts in relation to the Doctor's history may be interesting in this connection.
If you trawl through his endearing publication: The Narative of Dr. Tumblety, he makes a big thing of trying to clear his name after being linked.
I'ts fair to say that it's not likely that he would draw attention to himself to claim that he was arrested for such an unpariotic action. He was after all making a big thing of being linked to President lincoln (which no doubt, helped promote him scams). But he was in serious trouble in all concievable ways when arrested.
Besides some of the Propogana in his publication, he seems very desperate to exonerate himself.
What makes this better to comtemplate is the mistaken identity. The authorities probably had never heard of Tumblety. They were looking for a Dr. Blackburn.
So with Tumblety's ignorance for keeping a low profile (Big Whiskers and all!), he wouldn't be hard to find once the desciptions were out.
Anybody in the fold when being asked if they know of a Dr. Blackburn, would instantly remember this strange looking guy with whiskers and medals.
I don't think he was actually involved (just my opinion)
The Fellow they were looking for (Dr Luke Prior Blackburn) was a confederate agent. After being satisfied that Tumblety was just a conman, and not their man, released him.
Its very unlikely that they would find 2 Dr Blackburns mixed up in the same assassination plot.
But some of the damage was done. He would be now flagged by the Goverment and probably Interested Parties.
Section D (British Special Branch) headed by james Monro would most likely have information on potential anarchists, terroists etc and with the fenian problem as the primary interest, Tumblety would attract attention in more ways than one... His arrest by the Police in Whitechapel didn't help and since they couldn't hold him, they would certainly have him watched.
It could be said that he may have stayed had it been a normal situation (nobody knew him in England), but Special branch following him was too hot and he had to jump back to America (after all serial murders and guys watching him!).
Extradition:
The Yard boys could easily have grabbed him back and save the embarrassment of 'loosing' the killer. Extradition would be obtained oneway or another. It would make a good cover to get some Yard Guy(s) over there and keep an eye on Dr. T and satisfy Special Branches curiousity.
All the best
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cd19th January 2007, 08:10 PM
Maybe sending the detectives after Tumblety was simply a knee jerk reaction by Scotland Yard. If it ever came out that they actually had the Ripper in custody at one time (even though it was on other charges) and that he escaped, there would have been hell to pay. Maybe their thinking was let's keep an eye on him in America while we investigate further. If they then decided to charge him with murder, the detectives could then have approached the New York police and asked for extradition. It seems a reasonable assumption that if Tumblety had been even remotely suspected of being the Ripper, that there would have been an intense scrutiny of him once he escaped to America. Since there seems to be no follow up on Tumblety, my feeling is that Scotland Yard concluded that he was not worth pursuing.
c.d.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie19th January 2007, 11:48 PM
Maybe sending the detectives after Tumblety was simply a knee jerk reaction by Scotland Yard. If it ever came out that they actually had the Ripper in custody at one time (even though it was on other charges) and that he escaped, there would have been hell to pay. Maybe their thinking was let's keep an eye on him in America while we investigate further. If they then decided to charge him with murder, the detectives could then have approached the New York police and asked for extradition. It seems a reasonable assumption that if Tumblety had been even remotely suspected of being the Ripper, that there would have been an intense scrutiny of him once he escaped to America. Since there seems to be no follow up on Tumblety, my feeling is that Scotland Yard concluded that he was not worth pursuing.
c.d.
CD: Exactly my feelings also.
The guy was 'hot'.... but difficult for the 'British interests' to put their finger on him although it was deemed prudent to monitor him.
Fenian/Ripper/conman/Threat?? - Either factor - The Yard didn't have enough to do anthing. Special Branch - if he wasn't a national security risk, then i'd doubt they'd bother since he was now abroad.
Weigh up the current situational factors - terrorists/plotters/national risks v.s low threat serial murderers.
Where do you alocate the manpower/resources?
what's more important? (remember there is a special alocation branch just formed - Specially for the threat at this time).
The evident fact that the case wasn't closed until some years later, sheds light on the fact that the police didn't have Tumblety in the Frame. How many other suspects did the police have under observation?
The existing report from Littlechild/Swanson/Macnaugton seem to pattern the 'favourites' at the time, but any conclusive suspect has been be blanked by the police (he was NEVER named; thus by the police IF they knew).
Reasons may never be known - The actual killer has probably been named for some time but nobody listened.....
yours truly
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham20th January 2007, 12:34 AM
Richard,
Very late, so very brief. The police did take an interest in what went on overseas vis-a-vis the Fenians, and so forth. They had a pretty good set-up in France, for example, and also in the USA from where a good deal of Fenian activity was organised and financed. I'm pretty sure they knew about Tumblety - his name was, after all, linked with the assassination of Lincoln.
I don't think Tumblety was ever in the frame as a JtR suspect, but am pretty sure that he was being watched for other reasons.
Cheers,
Graham
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie20th January 2007, 01:16 AM
Richard,
Very late, so very brief....
Graham
'Late'... 'Brief'..., I thought I went into some detail?? Have you more light to shed? (I'd like to know more).
I also have covered what you have just said repeated (mostly) - so whats new??
All the best
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham20th January 2007, 09:23 AM
Richard,
Due to problems with this site and with my computer, for reasons I don't fully understand I didn't see your post of 7.38pm until after I'd posted mine of 1.16am! Sorry for any misunderstanding - blame technology! And your post is indeed extemely interesting. Fascinating character, old Francis.
Cheers,
Graham
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie20th January 2007, 11:59 AM
Richard,
Due to problems with this site and with my computer, for reasons I don't fully understand I didn't see your post of 7.38pm until after I'd posted mine of 1.16am! Sorry for any misunderstanding - blame technology! And your post is indeed extemely interesting. Fascinating character, old Francis.
Cheers,
Graham
Hi Graham
Think nothing of it. Happens to me sometimes;
I'm sometimes paused halfway during a reply (looking up a book or research in response) and during the lengthy time, someone else has answered the question & put it up on the board.
Thanks for your kind words about my post.
All the best
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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This is G o o g l e's cache of http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-3583.html as retrieved on 5 Feb 2008 04:54:01 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.
This cached page may reference images which are no longer available. Click here for the cached text only.
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These search terms have been highlighted: could tumblety have been extradited
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis > Could Tumblety Have Been Extradited?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PDAView Full Version : Could Tumblety Have Been Extradited?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cd4th January 2007, 08:51 PM
I don't know the answer to this question. If Scotland Yard had charged Tumblety with murder in connection with the Ripper killings, could he, as an American citizen, been extradited to England to stand trial? Would it have to have been an official charge of murder as opposed to suspicion of murder?
c.d.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
timothy5th January 2007, 02:57 PM
Hi c.d.,
Extradition from the US to Britain was, at the time, covered by the Ashburton Treaty (1842) which listed the following extraditable offenses: murder, assault with intent to commit murder, piracy, arson, robbery, forgery. One could be extradited for those crimes only if one were actually charged with them, not just as a suspect.
Best,
Tim
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cd5th January 2007, 03:42 PM
Hi Tim,
Thanks for that information. I have always felt that there could have been a way to bring Tumblety back to England had they really wanted to. But Tumblety was a litigious s.o.b. and they would have had a lawsuit on there hands no doubt. Plus (and this is pure speculation) given his alleged Fenian ties, Scotland Yard might have been afraid there would be a Fenian backlash.
c.d.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mwr7th January 2007, 12:37 PM
Hello all,
Tim's point about being charged with the offense before extradition could happen is relevant here because I dont believe that there is imperical proof he was in fact charged with anything other than the indecency violation, is there?
If I recall he was arrested Nov 7th on the indecency charges, scheduled to appear at at hearing on those charges 7 days later, then possibly released on bail 24 hours later, .... the rumoured charges on suspicion were around the 12th. He never was re-arrested though to my memory, and did not attend the hearing on the 14th either.
I did read that Scotland Yard dispatched 2 officers to follow "Mr Frank Townsend", the good doctor, as he sailed for New York cd....and although Ive heard that story can be discredited, if true, they may have tried to arrest him on charges relating to the crimes. Had they intended that, and had they caught him in New York they would be within their rights to bring him back with them.
Cheers all,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie11th January 2007, 07:55 PM
Hi all
Tumblety was linked to the assassination of Lincoln, and was arrested at the time for being a co-conspirator. He subsequently got released.
His string of dodgy exploits would have been known in the U.S. by the goverment keeping tabs.
Maybe once he was back in the U.S. The American authorities wanted to keep an eye on him for their own reasons.
He does after all have a record for jumping from place to place when the heat is on.
The fenian links are quite convincing for Scotland yard to tail him to America, but mysteriously not mentioned in any correspondance except the Littlechild letter.
A look at the Special Branch files would clear this link (if only!)
cheers
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Celee19th January 2007, 04:30 AM
Hi all
Tumblety was linked to the assassination of Lincoln, and was arrested at the time for being a co-conspirator. He subsequently got released.
cheers
Richard
Hi Richard,
Is that a fact that Tumblety was arrested as a co-conspirator in the Lincoln assasination? I have read were people have raised some doubts. I have also read that Tumblety had a male friend that was one of the four hung. Do you know if this is true, and did Tumblety stay at the same bording house of some of the conspirators? The same house that the woman who was hung ran? I am not claiming that any of this is true. I would just like to get some answers from someone who knows.
If Tumblety had been charged with the Kelly murder, he could have been sent back to England. However, he was not and the charge against him was not extraditable. So the question I have is, if he was followed to Newyork by the Yard, then what were they going to do to him when they got there? Were they going to bring him back?
Your friend, Brad
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie19th January 2007, 07:38 PM
Hi Richard,
Is that a fact that Tumblety was arrested as a co-conspirator in the Lincoln assasination? I have read were people have raised some doubts. I have also read that Tumblety had a male friend that was one of the four hung. Do you know if this is true, and did Tumblety stay at the same bording house of some of the conspirators? The same house that the woman who was hung ran? I am not claiming that any of this is true. I would just like to get some answers from someone who knows.
If Tumblety had been charged with the Kelly murder, he could have been sent back to England. However, he was not and the charge against him was not extraditable. So the question I have is, if he was followed to Newyork by the Yard, then what were they going to do to him when they got there? Were they going to bring him back?
Hi Brad
It appears that Tumbblety was mistaken for a 'Dr Luke Pryor Blackburn' .
This although appears on the face of it - a honest mistake, it wasn't helped by Tumblety actually using 'Dr J H Blackburn' as one of his aliases at the time.
The fact that he was arrested is almost certain as for one he made a big point of it at the time & His arrest was published in the Missouri Republican, Washinton Star & New York Herald also.
Quote from the M.R.
A sensation was produced in police circles yesterday, by the arrest of the famous Indian herb doctor, J. H. Blackburn, alias Tumblety. He was arrested at his office on Third Street, opposite the Post Office, by a United States policeman, and is charged, as it is stated, with some knowledge of complicity in the late assassination of President Lincoln.
We are not informed of the grounds of the suspicion under which he has fallen. He is said to have been a former partner of Herold's, in Brooklyn, New York. A few facts in relation to the Doctor's history may be interesting in this connection.
If you trawl through his endearing publication: The Narative of Dr. Tumblety, he makes a big thing of trying to clear his name after being linked.
I'ts fair to say that it's not likely that he would draw attention to himself to claim that he was arrested for such an unpariotic action. He was after all making a big thing of being linked to President lincoln (which no doubt, helped promote him scams). But he was in serious trouble in all concievable ways when arrested.
Besides some of the Propogana in his publication, he seems very desperate to exonerate himself.
What makes this better to comtemplate is the mistaken identity. The authorities probably had never heard of Tumblety. They were looking for a Dr. Blackburn.
So with Tumblety's ignorance for keeping a low profile (Big Whiskers and all!), he wouldn't be hard to find once the desciptions were out.
Anybody in the fold when being asked if they know of a Dr. Blackburn, would instantly remember this strange looking guy with whiskers and medals.
I don't think he was actually involved (just my opinion)
The Fellow they were looking for (Dr Luke Prior Blackburn) was a confederate agent. After being satisfied that Tumblety was just a conman, and not their man, released him.
Its very unlikely that they would find 2 Dr Blackburns mixed up in the same assassination plot.
But some of the damage was done. He would be now flagged by the Goverment and probably Interested Parties.
Section D (British Special Branch) headed by james Monro would most likely have information on potential anarchists, terroists etc and with the fenian problem as the primary interest, Tumblety would attract attention in more ways than one... His arrest by the Police in Whitechapel didn't help and since they couldn't hold him, they would certainly have him watched.
It could be said that he may have stayed had it been a normal situation (nobody knew him in England), but Special branch following him was too hot and he had to jump back to America (after all serial murders and guys watching him!).
Extradition:
The Yard boys could easily have grabbed him back and save the embarrassment of 'loosing' the killer. Extradition would be obtained oneway or another. It would make a good cover to get some Yard Guy(s) over there and keep an eye on Dr. T and satisfy Special Branches curiousity.
All the best
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cd19th January 2007, 08:10 PM
Maybe sending the detectives after Tumblety was simply a knee jerk reaction by Scotland Yard. If it ever came out that they actually had the Ripper in custody at one time (even though it was on other charges) and that he escaped, there would have been hell to pay. Maybe their thinking was let's keep an eye on him in America while we investigate further. If they then decided to charge him with murder, the detectives could then have approached the New York police and asked for extradition. It seems a reasonable assumption that if Tumblety had been even remotely suspected of being the Ripper, that there would have been an intense scrutiny of him once he escaped to America. Since there seems to be no follow up on Tumblety, my feeling is that Scotland Yard concluded that he was not worth pursuing.
c.d.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie19th January 2007, 11:48 PM
Maybe sending the detectives after Tumblety was simply a knee jerk reaction by Scotland Yard. If it ever came out that they actually had the Ripper in custody at one time (even though it was on other charges) and that he escaped, there would have been hell to pay. Maybe their thinking was let's keep an eye on him in America while we investigate further. If they then decided to charge him with murder, the detectives could then have approached the New York police and asked for extradition. It seems a reasonable assumption that if Tumblety had been even remotely suspected of being the Ripper, that there would have been an intense scrutiny of him once he escaped to America. Since there seems to be no follow up on Tumblety, my feeling is that Scotland Yard concluded that he was not worth pursuing.
c.d.
CD: Exactly my feelings also.
The guy was 'hot'.... but difficult for the 'British interests' to put their finger on him although it was deemed prudent to monitor him.
Fenian/Ripper/conman/Threat?? - Either factor - The Yard didn't have enough to do anthing. Special Branch - if he wasn't a national security risk, then i'd doubt they'd bother since he was now abroad.
Weigh up the current situational factors - terrorists/plotters/national risks v.s low threat serial murderers.
Where do you alocate the manpower/resources?
what's more important? (remember there is a special alocation branch just formed - Specially for the threat at this time).
The evident fact that the case wasn't closed until some years later, sheds light on the fact that the police didn't have Tumblety in the Frame. How many other suspects did the police have under observation?
The existing report from Littlechild/Swanson/Macnaugton seem to pattern the 'favourites' at the time, but any conclusive suspect has been be blanked by the police (he was NEVER named; thus by the police IF they knew).
Reasons may never be known - The actual killer has probably been named for some time but nobody listened.....
yours truly
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham20th January 2007, 12:34 AM
Richard,
Very late, so very brief. The police did take an interest in what went on overseas vis-a-vis the Fenians, and so forth. They had a pretty good set-up in France, for example, and also in the USA from where a good deal of Fenian activity was organised and financed. I'm pretty sure they knew about Tumblety - his name was, after all, linked with the assassination of Lincoln.
I don't think Tumblety was ever in the frame as a JtR suspect, but am pretty sure that he was being watched for other reasons.
Cheers,
Graham
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie20th January 2007, 01:16 AM
Richard,
Very late, so very brief....
Graham
'Late'... 'Brief'..., I thought I went into some detail?? Have you more light to shed? (I'd like to know more).
I also have covered what you have just said repeated (mostly) - so whats new??
All the best
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graham20th January 2007, 09:23 AM
Richard,
Due to problems with this site and with my computer, for reasons I don't fully understand I didn't see your post of 7.38pm until after I'd posted mine of 1.16am! Sorry for any misunderstanding - blame technology! And your post is indeed extemely interesting. Fascinating character, old Francis.
Cheers,
Graham
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leggie20th January 2007, 11:59 AM
Richard,
Due to problems with this site and with my computer, for reasons I don't fully understand I didn't see your post of 7.38pm until after I'd posted mine of 1.16am! Sorry for any misunderstanding - blame technology! And your post is indeed extemely interesting. Fascinating character, old Francis.
Cheers,
Graham
Hi Graham
Think nothing of it. Happens to me sometimes;
I'm sometimes paused halfway during a reply (looking up a book or research in response) and during the lengthy time, someone else has answered the question & put it up on the board.
Thanks for your kind words about my post.
All the best
Richard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
vBulletin v3.6.0, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.