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  • #31
    Mr. Palmer.

    "His eyes are steely blue, and he gazed steadily at nothing, as he spoke in a weak, effeminate voice." --Washington Post November 18, 1890.”
    Thanks for that. I don’t have that particular article in my files but will now look it up. I can now amend my earlier post to read –

    In all my hundreds of Tumblety newspaper clippings I can find no indication that anyone stated that Tumblety spoke with a “woman’s voice.” RJ Palmer points out that a Washington Post article (18 November, 1890) says that Tumblety “spoke in a weak, effeminate voice,” but this is ONE article out of hundreds and proves very little. In fact his voice is rarely mentioned. One paper stated that “He hurriedly engaged a cab, gave the directions in a low voice and was driven away” [The New York World, 4 December, 1888] which doesn’t actually describe Tumblety’s normal voice. He was also said to speak “in a quick, nervous fashion,” [the New York World, 29 January, 1889] and more than one paper said he spoke with an English accent. IF Tumblety spoke with an unusually high voice I’m surprised that this “fact” only surfaced once in all the decades that Tumblety appeared in newspapers.

    Wolf.

    Comment


    • #32
      Hi Steadmund.

      Are you the only one posting here? Or are you just ignoring what others have said?

      Again.... who said that "the argument is made that offering money for testimony would be unthinkable. That seems incredibly naive. " or are you just putting words on peoples mouths...
      Am I putting words into people’s mouths? :

      What you are suggesting is a conspiracy involving ex-lovers to undertakers...I think we are getting into JFK territory where everyone has to be involved for this conspiracy to work.
      But of course it was all part of the conspiracy.
      Not sure if you want to push this, since your conspiracy theory has gaping holes in it.
      I'll respond to your other posts in time, Steadmund, if that's all right with you.

      Hi conspiracy debunkers.

      It’s funny how some people jump on an argument, in this case that witnesses were probably paid to provide evidence that Tumblety was insane, label it “a conspiracy theory” and then, for whatever reason, believe that they have disproved the argument. High fives all around. In actual fact it’s just another example of intellectual laziness or, perhaps, the inability to debate the facts.

      The word “conspiracy,” according to my OED, means simply to “conspire,” or to “combine [as in a group] for unlawful purposes.” That seems fairly simple and straightforward but, to some, apparently, not.

      As I pointed out in my last post, “conspiracies” to defraud wills in probate are nothing new. Charles A. Dunham made a living out of challenging wills, providing false witnesses and fake family members in order to illegally acquire a cut from wills that were in probate. This falls quite obviously within the definition of a “conspiracy.” By calling this fact merely a “conspiracy theory” doesn’t change that fact or disprove it.

      Let me put this another way. The argument that witnesses lied during the 1905 trial has been dismissed as merely a “conspiracy theory.” That it is “getting into JFK territory where everyone has to be involved for this conspiracy to work.” But, as I also wrote, there were witnesses put forward by the lawyers of the St. Louis will who rebutted the testimony from the Tumblety family’s witnesses (as I also said, presumably about Tumblety’s physical attributes).

      These witnesses, described as St. John’s Hospital physicians, nuns and the hospital’s chaplain, must have been lying IF the family’s witnesses were telling the truth. But that couldn’t have happened because that would be “getting into JFK territory where everyone has to be involved for this conspiracy to work.” Slippery slope?

      Wolf.

      Comment


      • #33
        Hi Mike.

        Roger just demonstrated your cherry picking of the evidence.
        You know how this works.

        I posted that “In all my hundreds of Tumblety newspaper clippings I can find no indication that anyone stated that Tumblety spoke with a “woman’s voice.” This is in fact true. You, however, state that I was, demonstrably, guilty of “cherry picking of the evidence.

        Please provide me, and everyone else, with the evidence that my files contain the Washington Post article, that I found it, yet ignored it, and that I, therefor attempted to mislead Dave, and anyone else who read my post.

        Tick tock Mike.

        Wolf.

        Comment


        • #34
          Again, Wolf, I Agree with you, I probably did respond to early believing I was being accused of these things.. it may have been the timing on the posts. I can admit when I am wrong, and I apologize.. and please take your time in response to my posts, that is alright with me

          I whole heartedly agree that some people who testified MAY have been paid off, a fact I think everyone would agree with.. and also that they were trying to prove him insane...again...everyone agrees, but the argument seems to be more than that..almost personal...and it really shouldn't be, there is nothing positive that can be gained from that

          I am one of the very few people who HAS READ all this new info, and let me tell you...MANY of my beliefs and pre conceived ideas about Tumblety were shattered.. keep an open mind, you may be astounded, or once you see it you may poo poo it.. totally within your right....but don't judge prematurely...

          And remember folks.. we are all suppose to be on the same team.. looking for the same thing... the truth..let's not forget that

          Steadmund Brand
          "The truth is what is, and what should be is a fantasy. A terrible, terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago."- Lenny Bruce

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Wolf Vanderlinden View Post
            But, as I also wrote, there were witnesses put forward by the lawyers of the St. Louis will who rebutted the testimony from the Tumblety family’s witnesses (as I also said, presumably about Tumblety’s physical attributes).

            These witnesses, described as St. John’s Hospital physicians, nuns and the hospital’s chaplain, must have been lying IF the family’s witnesses were telling the truth.

            Wolf.
            I believe the undertaker who prepared Tumblety's body also testified to Tumblety's physical attributes. The variety of witnesses to his condition make it more believable to me at least.

            JM

            Comment


            • #36
              This simply won't do, Wolf, it simply won't do.

              It is not historically valid to refer to one crooked lawyer in a long forgotten probate case (among hundreds of thousands of other probate cases without a hint of impropriety) and then transpose this slur onto the present case. You are still require to show evidence or even plausibility of corruption.

              Many years ago I had the pleasure of knowing, for a short time, a man with many years of experience on the bench. He once told me in that in all the dozens upon dozens of probate cases brought before him over the years, in only one single solitary instance did a will go uncontested. It is an extremely common event.

              Michael Fitzsimmons was a highly respected man in Rochester, New York. He was well-read, a member of two literary societies, the Shakespeare club, and was active in local politics. There is no hint of any criminal record on his part. The mere fact that he pursued this probabate case on behalf of his extended family--who were the rightful heirs-- is not the least bit untoward or suspicious, and the idea that he and his lawyers would pay-off dozens of different witnesses and parade them before the court without a peep of it coming to the attention of the opposing legal council--not to mention the judge--- doesn't strike me as a working theory based on "healthy skepticism" but, rather, wild conjecture.

              By the way, what Wolf V. forgets to meniton is that we know that Charles Dunham was involved in falsfying evidence BECAUSE HE WAS CAUGHT OUT AND EXPOSED.

              Not a peep of that it the present case, of course.

              But let's chose a different angle. The average citizen in the 1905 was pretty naive about sexuality and certainly about homosexuality, etc. There are 1,001 different ways to claim a guy is crazy, and make it sound pretty darn plausible. But Mike FitzSimmons and his lawyers just happen to come up with the unheard of diagnosis of hermaphroditism and figured that this was the sure fire way of proving that the old guy was nuts?? Are you kidding me? We are supposed to believe that they hoped the judge might have read Krafft-Ebing (in the original German, no doubt) and would make the remarkable leap that this was sure fire proof that Frank Tumilty was mentally unfit to make out a will? If that's plausible, I'm Donald Swanson.

              I await the evidence.

              Comment


              • #37
                Exactly Roger.

                So, here are the details:

                There was a total of 46 sworn testimonies and depositions; almost all were to explain Tumblety's state of mind WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS OF HIS DEATH when he was involved with writing the 1903 St. Louis will. If the attorneys were attempting to demonstrate Tumblety was insane because of his lifelong intersex condition, his connection with the Whitechapel murders, and his homosexuality, these issues would have been in a high percentage of the testimonies, yet they were not. The attorneys, and the judge for that matter, was only concerned about the last couple of years. On occasion (especially depositions), the witness discussed their relationship with Dr. T for the last 20 years in order to show that his behavior changed in the last couple of years of his life.

                Interestingly, the undertaker, Mr. Nash, gave two sworn testimonies. When Nash commented upon Tumblety's intersex condition, it was when he gave a deposition to attorneys on November 4, 1904. The other attorney did indeed object to a couple of comments, but not the intersex condition comment. When Nash was in front of the probate judge in St. Louis on May 2, 1905, neither attorney asked him about his intersex condition. Point: The judge NEVER heard about the intersex condition, thus, it was not used to determine a lifelong mental condition. In fact, when the attorney asked the St. John's Hospital physician about his hermaphrodite condition, the judge stated it was irrelevant to the case, so they stopped with absolutely no objections.

                So, while it's true the 25 relatives were attempting to demonstrate Tumblety was not of sound mind and body, it was ONLY through his mental state in the last two years of his life as compared to the last twenty years.

                Keep in mind, they had well over 40 witnesses, which included a priest, two nuns, a mayor, a judge, and four attorneys. Do you honest believe these credible people would have received pay to lie under oath in front of the probate judge? One of them was Baltimore attorney Frank Widner, who Tim Riordan claimed was above reproach. He was very detailed in his comments upon Tumblety's misogyny. Norris, by the way, worked for the New Orleans Police Department for decades with his brother. They received awards for their achievements and were very respected. Norris was responsible for the classified cable transmission going to the Chief of Police. He does not sound like a liar to me.

                Honestly, the evidence demonstrates credible eyewitness accounts that corroborated each other.

                Sincerely,
                Mike
                The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                Comment


                • #38
                  Hi Mike.

                  Roger just demonstrated your cherry picking of the evidence.
                  Two weeks gone and I’m still waiting for you to provide the evidence that my files contained the Washington Post article, that I found it, yet ignored it, and that I, therefor attempted to mislead people with my post. Are you still looking? Or what? Can’t wait to see what you will come up with.

                  By the way, I did subsequently find the Washington Post article online. There’s an interesting thing: remember I was pointing out that the physical descriptions of Tumblety given in the depositions did not seem to be supported by hundreds of newspaper articles, printed over more than a 50 year span? Remember that Tumblety’s supposed womanish figure was not supported anywhere? Well, what do you think Mr. Palmer decided not to mention from the Washington Post article? The line “Dr. Tumblety is an enormous man, over six feet in height, with broad shoulders.” Why not, since that was one of the things we were discussing? Looks like cherry picking to me. Want to comment?

                  Wolf.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Mr. Palmer.

                    It is not historically valid to refer to one crooked lawyer in a long forgotten probate case (among hundreds of thousands of other probate cases without a hint of impropriety) and then transpose this slur onto the present case. You are still require to show evidence or even plausibility of corruption.
                    Some things never change. Missing my point being a constant. I originally pointed out that there were inconsistencies with some of the testimony given at the 1905 Tumblety probate trial. Evidence?: Physical descriptions don’t seem to match those in hundreds of newspaper articles (I gave newspapers and dates for anyone who wanted to check out); Richard Norris’s deposition seems full of errors and lies (I commented on some of this over on the “Tumblety: The Hidden Truth” board and will go into more detail here) and, with a large fortune at stake, paid testimony seems to explain this. I was told that this was only conspiracy theorizing (by you amongst others). I then pointed out that shady probate cases did (and probably still do) exist and gave an example proving that “conspiracies,” especially over money, are nothing new. If you want to attempt to twist what I wrote well, that’s something that never seems to change either.

                    Many years ago I had the pleasure of knowing, for a short time, a man with many years of experience on the bench. He once told me in that in all the dozens upon dozens of probate cases brought before him over the years, in only one single solitary instance did a will go uncontested. It is an extremely common event.
                    Proving, what, exactly? In order for a valid comparison, how many of those contested probate cases had the same circumstances as the 1905 Tumblety case? How many were attempting to prove non compos mentis? How many of them had fabricated testimony? Do you actually believe that there is never any fabricated testimony in a last ditch fight for a share in a large fortune? You’ll have to prove that.

                    Michael Fitzsimmons was a highly respected man in Rochester, New York. He was well-read, a member of two literary societies, the Shakespeare club, and was active in local politics. There is no hint of any criminal record on his part. The mere fact that he pursued this probabate case on behalf of his extended family--who were the rightful heirs-- is not the least bit untoward or suspicious, and the idea that he and his lawyers would pay-off dozens of different witnesses and parade them before the court without a peep of it coming to the attention of the opposing legal council--not to mention the judge--- doesn't strike me as a working theory based on "healthy skepticism" but, rather, wild conjecture.
                    Mr. Palmer, you have become confused here. Michael Fitsimmons did not pursue “the probate case on behalf of his extended family.” He did not have to “pay-off dozens of different witnesses and parade them before the court” because he was, in fact, “the opposing legal council (sic)”.

                    Fitzsimmons’s wife Mary was to inherit $10,000 from the contested St. Louis will. She was one of the defendants named in the suit by the family members who were attempting to overturn the St. Louis will by trying to prove that Tumblety was insane. Fitzsimmons was supporting the St. Louis will and opposing the non compos mentis suit so, no, he didn’t pay witnesses for their testimony.

                    By the way, what Wolf V. forgets to meniton is that we know that Charles Dunham was involved in falsfying evidence BECAUSE HE WAS CAUGHT OUT AND EXPOSED.
                    Not a peep of that it the present case, of course.
                    Actually, Dunham was involved in several successful probate scams without being “caught out.” And is there no “peep of that” in the present case or do you just ignore the possibility?

                    But let's chose a different angle. The average citizen in the 1905 was pretty naive about sexuality and certainly about homosexuality, etc. There are 1,001 different ways to claim a guy is crazy, and make it sound pretty darn plausible. But Mike FitzSimmons and his lawyers just happen to come up with the unheard of diagnosis of hermaphroditism and figured that this was the sure fire way of proving that the old guy was nuts?? Are you kidding me? We are supposed to believe that they hoped the judge might have read Krafft-Ebing (in the original German, no doubt) and would make the remarkable leap that this was sure fire proof that Frank Tumilty was mentally unfit to make out a will? If that's plausible, I'm Donald Swanson.
                    Ignoring the Michael Fitzsimmons faux pas again, the above suggests that you are unwilling to admit the probate case was about proving Tumblety was insane in order to get at his money, or that you are only paying lip service to this fact. Either way, the fact remains that hermaphroditism/morphism was seen as a sign of insanity in 1905 and testimony that Tumblety supposedly was a hermaphrodite/morphodite was offered in a probate case that was trying to prove Tumblety insane. If you can’t see the connection you may want to ask your “man with many years of experience on the bench” how many probate cases involved a mortician describing the penis of the dead man. Was that “an extremely common event”?

                    Wolf.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Hi Phil (Steadman).

                      Sorry about the delay, I've been away on business and then at my parents place for Canadian Thanksgiving. I just have to tidy somethings up. More to come.

                      Wolf.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        "And remember folks.. we are all suppose to be on the same team.. looking for the same thing... the truth..let's not forget that."

                        Well said and a point that merits repeating.

                        c.d.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Wolf, no offense, really, but to be perfectly blunt, these are the sort of weak arguments that lead many people to suspect that you have a personal agenda, rather than are attempting any sort of serious analysis.

                          These "hundreds of articles" you referred to earlier on this thread consist largely of advertisements, cursory court proceedings, descriptions of people who once saw Tumilty wandering down the sidewalk in a military uniform, a couple of manslaughter cases where he didn't even appear before the Coroner, people who remember him handing out barrels of flour 30 years earlier etc, etc. None of them actually mention his voice, but you attempt to make it sound like there was some sort of unspoken consensus or some hidden meaning to be gleaned from this fact. But of course, you and I both know there isn't. They didn't mention his toe nails, either, so from that we can draw conclusions about what his toe nails looked like?

                          By contrast, the one account that actually specifically describes the tenor of his voice states that it was effeminate. It describes the very thing that you implied didn't exist.

                          It is hardly surprising that Victorian era journalist seldom spoke of such things. But after FT's 1888 troubles in London and after the Cleveland Street scandal of 1889, when such things became topical, it became more relevant and thus it was mentioned by the Washington Post in 1890. Even Tim Riordan--who I personally believe often misinterpretted the data--called this "revealing." If you can't figure it out, let me spell it out for you. Many people in the United States had long suspected Tumilty's sexual proclivities, but they never stated it openly. After it was stated in the world press in 1888 that he had run afoul of the Crimes Against the Persons Act, they no longer held their tongues. So when FT was picked up on suspicion in D.C. in Novemeber 1890, the police strongly suspected that he was crusing for young males, hence the journalist felt it relevant to metion that he spoke in an "effeminate voice." The Washington Post reporter is giving you a not so subtle clue, Wolf. Even Riordan picked up on it, but you wish to dismiss this. "it tells us little." Horse pucky. It tells us a lot or at least it tells me a lot. But the most relevant point is that this was published 15 years before the 1905 court proceedings, which, of course, entirely demolishes your original comments made on these boards. Yet, to your way of thinking THE ONLY ACCOUNT WE CURRENTLY HAVE of the actual tenor of FT's voice before 1905 means "very little." Why? Obviously because you want it to mean "very little." Enough said.

                          No, I didn't mention Tumblety's height. Why would I? It's irrelevant, but evidently you seem to believe that being 6' or 6' 1" is evidence that he isn't intersexed. If that's your genetic kite, feel free to fly it, but don't expect me to endorse it or even comment on it. As Simon Wood might say, "it need not detain us."

                          Frankly, I don't even feel like responding to your strange Dunham theory. I may have misstated FitzSimon's role in the litigation, but you are misstating Dunham's actual modus operandi. If I recall, what he and his cronies did was find probate cases where there were either no claimants, or there were claimants that didn't wish to proceed. They would then file suit themselves and use impostors, etc. Is that what you are suggesting happened in the 1905 case? Based on what evidence? Or are you simply spreading random doubts? And yes, Dunham was exposed. He was so spectacularly exposed that a hundred years later he had a biography wrtten about him. How is this relevant? John Dillinger robbed banks. In fact, Dillinger robbed lots of banks. How does that make Joe Blow a bank robber? If you truly wish this to be your historical argument, let 'er Rip. But don't expect many people to endorse it if you're not going to offer more than a few half-baked innuendoes. The average student of the case has become far too sophisticated for such vague arguments. Further, it is going to be very difficult for you to come back later and claim you looked at the evidence carefully, impartially, and dispassionately when you already began weaving random doubts before it was even presented in its entirety. I plan on withdrawing from this conversation. I believe that these new developments may be far too important to be undermined by random speculation beforehand. I am withholding judgement until I actually see all the data. Have a good afternoon. The floor is yours.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Wolf Vanderlinden View Post
                            Hi Mike.



                            Two weeks gone and I’m still waiting for you to provide the evidence that my files contained the Washington Post article, that I found it, yet ignored it, and that I, therefor attempted to mislead people with my post. Are you still looking? Or what? Can’t wait to see what you will come up with.

                            By the way, I did subsequently find the Washington Post article online. There’s an interesting thing: remember I was pointing out that the physical descriptions of Tumblety given in the depositions did not seem to be supported by hundreds of newspaper articles, printed over more than a 50 year span? Remember that Tumblety’s supposed womanish figure was not supported anywhere? Well, what do you think Mr. Palmer decided not to mention from the Washington Post article? The line “Dr. Tumblety is an enormous man, over six feet in height, with broad shoulders.” Why not, since that was one of the things we were discussing? Looks like cherry picking to me. Want to comment?

                            Wolf.
                            Wolf! You're back!

                            Your two weeks "tic tock" clock is a red herring, so enjoy your broken clock.

                            Speaking of Fitzsimmons faux pas, the Mary who received $10,000 was Michael's sister, not wife. Charles Fitzsimmons was on the list also, and he was an upstanding General who lived out his life in Chicago. He was a very upstanding citizen.

                            Wolf, get over it. The volume of recent evidence (not just the St. Louis evidence by the way. There is more, so enjoy the future.) confirms that Stewart Evans was right all along, and those who made their ripperology name by allegedly debunking his Tumblety discoveries have been found to be dead wrong.

                            Of course you have to say Norris was paid off, but you also have to say his attorney Frank Widner was paid off (a man Riordan claims was absolutely right), four other attorneys and a judge (all of whom know the consequences of lying under sworn testimony). The same side of the court battle who used these witnesses also used a priest and a mother superior.

                            Your argument has gaping holes in it just like your argument that human-hater meant Tumblety was gay.

                            By all means, keep on digging your hole.

                            Sorry Wolf.

                            Mike
                            Last edited by mklhawley; 10-15-2017, 08:02 AM.
                            The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                            http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              An apology to Brian (Steadman Brandt) for the long delay. I was pretty busy and time just slipped away (although I hadn't realised a month, had gone since my last post).

                              I have been busy on this, however, as you will see below.

                              Wolf.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                First off, what I consider to be a very important finding:

                                Who here thinks that the St. Louis Tumblety probate records are a brand new discovery? I was sure led to believe this.

                                I first heard about the St. Louis records (I thought) when I read the Tumblety: The Hidden Truth board here on the Casebook. In the very first post Jonathan stated “Tumblety: The Hidden Truth interviews author Michael Hawley and researcher Brian Young about the contents of over 600 pages of Saint Louis County legal documents that have been recently discovered…”

                                This was emphasised when I read Joe Chetcuti’s article Uniting Jack and Jill in the August issue of the Whitechapel Society Journal. Joe writes “Thanks to the efforts of Mike [Hawley] and his colleagues, over 900 pages of court testimony was located in America. This is new materialThe plan was for Mike to reveal the discoveries at the September 2017 Liverpool Ripper Conference…Mike was subsequently compelled to disclose the general nature of this ground-breaking work

                                It turns out, however, that this “brand new discovery” isn’t so new after all. This “ground-breaking work” was first carried out by author Tim Riordan. Apparently he was the first to discover the St. Louis probate records and the first to write about them in chapter 17 of his excellent 2009 book Prince of Quacks. It’s even clearly listed in his bibliography under “Public Records: St. Louis City Probate Court. 1903 – 1908 probate Papers Related to the Estate of Francis Tumblety, case no. 29083.

                                Hawley must know that Riordan was the first to find and use the probate records because we know he has read Riordan’s book and he has recently mentioned Riordan’s work in connection with the Baltimore lawyer Frank Widner. Widner is mentioned in Riordan’s book in chapters 16 and 17, the chapter that discusses the St. Louis probate records.

                                Perhaps Hawley would like to explain this?

                                Oh, and tick-tock, Mike.

                                Wolf.

                                Comment

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