Francis Thompson. The Perfect Suspect.

[MrBarnett]

The geographical advantage would be that the West India Docks are closer to Whitechapel than Bloomsbury. Just as living in Cripin street would be geographically advantageous. I agree if he was in the WID it would still require at least a half hour walk to Whitechapel. If he choose to stay at Crispin Street's Providence Row, it makes every murder location a little stroll.

From Commercial Street, the WID Road and Bloomsbury are roughly equidistant. But let's not get hung up on Bloomsbury. Finsbury, Islington, Holborn would serve just as well.

And we have to ask ourselves why a man like Thompson would venture so far east. My guess would be that it had something to do with his taste for opium. So are we saying he schlepped all the way to Poplar to score, then nipped out to Spitalfields for a quick rip before trudging all the way back?

That doesn't found very convincing to me.

MrB

[Richard Patterson]

Hi Richard,

It depends on how you define the East End. Surely all that's relevant is how easily the killer could access the murder sites from his place of residence. The West India Docks are a fair distance from the murder sites.

If you walk the same distance West as the WID are from Spitalfields you are very definitely not in the East End (and you won't be far from Bloomsbury). I don't see how someone living in the WID area would have a geographical advantage over someone living in Bloomsbury or Clerkenwell or half a dozen other districts that aren't covered by the very vague term 'the East End'. And someone living in the City would be much closer. Dorset Street was virtually in the City.

If Thompson can be placed in Crispin Street in 1888, then he was very close to the action. If he was near the WID, he was not. The fact that they were East of the City and can be considered part of the East End is not in itself particularly significant.

MrB

The geographical advantage would be that the West India Docks are closer to Whitechapel than Bloomsbury. Just as living in Cripin street would be geographically advantageous. I agree if he was in the WID it would still require at least a half hour walk to Whitechapel. If he choose to stay at Crispin Street's Providence Row, it makes every murder location a little stroll.

[MrBarnett]

Yes you are right. The Guildhall library was in the city, though the West India Docks are closer to the East End than Bloomsbury. I have not drawn a circle from Crispin Street, in Whitechapel, where Thompson lived, to the furthest murder site, but I'm sure the circle would be a far smaller one than what you envision.

Hi Richard,

It depends on how you define the East End. Surely all that's relevant is how easily the killer could access the murder sites from his place of residence. The West India Docks are a fair distance from the murder sites.

If you walk the same distance West as the WID are from Spitalfields you are very definitely not in the East End (and you won't be far from Bloomsbury). I don't see how someone living in the WID area would have a geographical advantage over someone living in Bloomsbury or Clerkenwell or half a dozen other districts that aren't covered by the very vague term 'the East End'. And someone living in the City would be much closer. Dorset Street was virtually in the City.

If Thompson can be placed in Crispin Street in 1888, then he was very close to the action. If he was near the WID, he was not. The fact that they were East of the City and can be considered part of the East End is not in itself particularly significant.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Mr.Barnett. Why 'model', though?

Ausgirl,

Model as in a good example.

MrB.

[Richard Patterson]

The Guildhall library is in the heart of the City, not the East End.

If you draw a circle with Dorset Street at its centre and the West India Docks on its circumference you would take in most of Central London, North and South of the river.

Living near the West India Docks would have given Thompson no better access to Spitalfields than, say, living in Bloomsbury.

Yes you are right. The Guildhall library was in the city, though the West India Docks are closer to the East End than Bloomsbury. I have not drawn a circle from Crispin Street, in Whitechapel, where Thompson lived, to the furthest murder site, but I'm sure the circle would be a far smaller one than what you envision.

[Ausgirl]

Thanks Mr.Barnett. Why 'model', though?

[MrBarnett]

The Guildhall library is in the heart of the City, not the East End.

If you draw a circle with Dorset Street at its centre and the West India Docks on its circumference you would take in most of Central London, North and South of the river.

Living near the West India Docks would have given Thompson no better access to Spitalfields than, say, living in Bloomsbury.

[MrBarnett]

Ausgirl ,


It was a model lodging house. I think this was it .

[Ausgirl]

ot sorry.. but what's that dark building/place at cr of Albert & Underwood?

[GUT]

Thank you for that, it must have been in one of the other Thompson threads or something and I missed it, I'm not sure why we have so many threads dealing with the same issue [and I'm not only referring to Thompson] on the day the Edwards DNA fiasco started I think that 4 threads were started on the same topic.

[Richard Patterson]

G'day Richard

But earlier you posted

'I can’t place Thompson firmly in Whitechapel. So I cannot give you anything in point form. I can say that during his vagrancy years;

He frequented the Guildhall Library – In the East End.
He lived in the West India Docks District -In the East End.
He walked nights along Mile End Road –In the East End.
He slept in homeless shelters, most likely the Salvation Army’s Limehouse shelter – In the East End.'

Descriptions of Thompson, on his dressing and living habits come from Thompson’s close associates, and long time friends - people who knew him for many years.'

Perhaps you can see why I am confused.

When I posted this I had not yet found my information that placed Thompson in Whitechapel. I only came across this information, a few days ago, when I was reading the 1967 edition of Walsh's biography on Thompson. To me its reasonable to think that when Thompson could not find a bed in Providence Row, he would have slept in various other localities or walked the streets.

[GUT]

G'day Richard

But earlier you posted

I can’t place Thompson firmly in Whitechapel. So I cannot give you anything in point form. I can say that during his vagrancy years;

He frequented the Guildhall Library – In the East End.
He lived in the West India Docks District -In the East End.
He walked nights along Mile End Road –In the East End.
He slept in homeless shelters, most likely the Salvation Army’s Limehouse shelter – In the East End.


Descriptions of Thompson, on his dressing and living habits come from Thompson’s close associates, and long time friends - people who knew him for many years.

Perhaps you can see why I am confused.

[Richard Patterson]

Sorry Richard you have probably posted this elsewhere but I have previously seen speculation that Thompson may have lived in Providence Row but can you point me to the PROOF that this is so, I have obviously missed that.

John Evangelist Walsh wrote in 1967 biography on Thompson, “Strange Harp, Strange Symphony the Life of Francis Thompson,” that Thompson was staying in Providence Row. Walsh is one of the foremost experts on Thompson with access to personal notes, archives, unpublished letters, and private notebooks. Walsh’s sources were copious and trusted. Most of the Preface to his book is devoted to thanking the people and organizations that gave him access to personal papers and related documents. He also interviewed people who knew Thompson. The circumstances of Thompson’s homelessness and the events surrounding it would hardly have been treated lightly. Providence Row was run expressively for Catholics with limited beds. It is more than likely that Thompson sought refuge with people of his faith. Such things as him being a newly published poet and writer in a respectable Catholic magazine, him being an ex-seminary student, and connections he had to priests in London, who were friends of the family, would have guaranteed entry to Providence Row. A place where Thompson would have felt protected. I myself have been to Boston College to the Burns library that holds many of Thompson’s notes and letters. It was there that I attained information that he would walk nights on Mile End Road in the East End. The Providence Row information from Walsh comes from Thompson’s manuscript, “Catholics in Darkest England”. This was an essay, using the Salvation Army’s shelters as an example foe why Catholics should follow suit, providing more shelters for Catholic vagrants.

[GUT]

This connects him to Whitechapel. Here is a map of Whitechapel. It shows where Francis Thompson was living in 1888. It shows his location in relation to where the Ripper's victims where found. The map points to Thompson living less than 100 meters from Mary Kelly. Thompson was lodging in the Catholic refuge in Providence Row, at 50 Crispin Street. This is opposite Dorset Street.

Sorry Richard you have probably posted this elsewhere but I have previously seen speculation that Thompson may have lived in Providence Row but can you point me to the PROOF that this is so, I have obviously missed that.

[Richard Patterson]

Hi,

I dont think that there is anything that connects him to Whitechapel, let alone to murder or violence of any kind.

Really, just a sad and talented soul who lost his way.

This connects him to Whitechapel. Here is a map of Whitechapel. It shows where Francis Thompson was living in 1888. It shows his location in relation to where the Ripper's victims where found. The map points to Thompson living less than 100 meters from Mary Kelly. Thompson was lodging in the Catholic refuge in Providence Row, at 50 Crispin Street. This is opposite Dorset Street.