Denial, Desperation and Dishonesty - Defending Stephen Knight’s Nonsense

[Purkis]

I think there's something in the theory that Thomas Stowell (a prominent Mason) invented the easily disproved Royal conspiracy in order to discredit any future evidence that may have emerged linking the WM to freemasonry.

[Simon Wood]

In November 1891, Prince Albert Victor, having just been extricated from a scandalous affair with chorus girl Lydia Manton, who may have been pregnant at the time of her agonising death from imbibing carbolic acid, became engaged to his second cousin once removed, Princess Victoria Mary of Teck, known as “May.”

Five and a half weeks later, on 14th January 1892, Prince Albert Victor died at Sandringham from influenza.

Here's a picture of PAV on his death bed.

[packers stem]

Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. Sorry if that’s a bit boringly normal and lacking in mystery and melodrama but it’s a fact nonetheless.

I didn't say it had anything to do with JTR
You asked me to elaborate regarding PAV on his death bed ..... I did so .

Every time you just stamp your feet , throw the dummy out and shout "it's a serial killer" instead of addressing the issues properly

and until you find evidence to prove that the killings were committed by 'a' serial killer then no , it's not a fact

[Herlock Sholmes]

Evening Herlock
Yes Knights theory was destroyed although a great many aspects remain that had nothing to do with Knight .
No, the theory is finished.
and no, Netley jumping in the thames is not cleared up until you find a Nickley that could be described as a young man

We don't know his accent .... but we can guess to imitate it .... nothing to do with Dick van Dyke or chips .

Oi Buckler.....oh butler
Different names, unconnected.
I wouldn't criticise coincidence too much ..... that's all the evidence there is against Monty .
Macnaghten isn’t a coincidence. He’s evidence.
As for PAV
He was cursing both Churchill and Salisbury as he lay dying with his blue fingers


Edward and Alexandra
Richard Hough
Page 183

'On the morning of the 13th January the prince became delirious and began shouting about his regiment and his brother officers , Lord Salisbury and Lord Randolph Churchill '

The importance of being Edward
Stanley Weintraub
Page 331

'On the 13th he was delirious , rowing and shouting the names of people who were not there , and never had been .
"Who's that" he asked over and over again , seeing no-one’

Completely irrelevant and in no way connected to the WM.

Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. Sorry if that’s a bit boringly normal and lacking in mystery and melodrama but it’s a fact nonetheless.

[packers stem]

As you might expect I feel no sympathy for Fishy. He’s simply not being honest. I can accept wrong. I’ve been wrong; we’ve all been wrong. Ok, some make a habit of it but I won’t go into that. The Stephen Knight theory has been shredded, destroyed and shown categorically to have been a pack of lies. No one takes it seriously anymore (if they ever did) How can anyone support a theory that has had so many of its core ideas dismissed by cold, hard facts. If Fishy was serious and honest about the case there is only one option. To realise that he’s probably the only person alive who believes it and that there are very good reasons for that and to move on.

Coincidences occur a million times a day and are the lifeblood of the conspiracy theorists. They live off them like a Vampire at a blood bank.



Could you explain this one PS?



I have and it sounds nothing like Netley unless you are Dick Van Dyke with a mouthful of hot chips!

Netley/Nickley. Obviously two different men. Another mystery cleared up.

Evening Herlock
Yes Knights theory was destroyed although a great many aspects remain that had nothing to do with Knight .

and no, Netley jumping in the thames is not cleared up until you find a Nickley that could be described as a young man

We don't know his accent .... but we can guess to imitate it .... nothing to do with Dick van Dyke or chips .

Oi Buckler.....oh butler

I wouldn't criticise coincidence too much ..... that's all the evidence there is against Monty .

As for PAV
He was cursing both Churchill and Salisbury as he lay dying with his blue fingers


Edward and Alexandra
Richard Hough
Page 183

'On the morning of the 13th January the prince became delirious and began shouting about his regiment and his brother officers , Lord Salisbury and Lord Randolph Churchill '

The importance of being Edward
Stanley Weintraub
Page 331

'On the 13th he was delirious , rowing and shouting the names of people who were not there , and never had been .
"Who's that" he asked over and over again , seeing no-one'

[Simon Wood]

Hi Trevor,

Is that the name of the Lodge, or the pub in which their meetings were held?

Regards,

Simon

[packers stem]

Hi Packers,

Years ago I was authoritively informed that John McCarthy was in the same Lodge as Abberline. The jury is still out on that tempting detail.

As far as I can make out, Abberline joined the Zetland 511 Lodge on 4th December 1889, Passed on 5th February 1890, and was Raised on 2nd April 1890.

Littlechild joined the same Lodge on 7th November 1894, Passed on 5th December 1894, and was Raised on 6th February 1894.

I have no clue as to when Abberline may have left the Lodge. Can you leave, or is it like the Mafia—you're in for life?

If he did leave, I would put the date at around 1906 when Abberline and his wife moved to Bournemouth. But he does not seem to have joined a local Lodge between 1906 and 1929, the date of his death.

Hope it helps.

Regards,

Simon

PS. There is a suspicion that PAV did not die from influenza.

Thank you Simon

I'll try to find where I saw the leave date tomorrow .

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Packers,

Years ago I was authoritively informed that John McCarthy was in the same Lodge as Abberline. The jury is still out on that tempting detail.

As far as I can make out, Abberline joined the Zetland 511 Lodge on 4th December 1889, Passed on 5th February 1890, and was Raised on 2nd April 1890.

Littlechild joined the same Lodge on 7th November 1894, Passed on 5th December 1894, and was Raised on 6th February 1894.

I have no clue as to when Abberline may have left the Lodge. Can you leave, or is it like the Mafia—you're in for life?

If he did leave, I would put the date at around 1906 when Abberline and his wife moved to Bournemouth. But he does not seem to have joined a local Lodge between 1906 and 1929, the date of his death.

Hope it helps.

Regards,

Simon

PS. There is a suspicion that PAV did not die from influenza.

McCarthy was a member of the King’s Head lodge.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m still waiting to hear from Fishy how he knows that Abberline questioned Gull over the Whitechapel Murders? He seems rather reluctant to respond.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Feeling a little sorry for fishy here

Simon did indeed destroy all of Knights so called evidence .
There are reasons why the Royal conspiracy won't ever die though , coincidence only goes so far and a number of very dodgy occurrences too close together draw attention.
I suspect they were all to do with Cleveland Street and not JTR though and because of the Sickert tale it becomes difficult to unravel the two .

Firstly
I think there's now sufficient evidence to suggest that it was Walter who made up the story, not Joseph .
Joseph could have embellished more than a little and Knight could have suffered from that.

Joseph was not aware that Gull was the Sickerts doctor when Walter was young. Had he been then he would surely have used that info had he made the 'whole' story up .Anything to add strength would have been used .
I genuinely believe that he believed the story and just wanted to prove it .
Added to that twice someone from NSY pointed people in the direction of Sickert

Here's something I posted some time back of FB .Coincidences ? Maybe , maybe not .

I've no doubt that PAV felt his death wasn't entirely natural due to him cursing Salisbury and Churchill on his death bed .... Churchill , by this time , was nothing but a failed politician .

As i said earlier , all this speculation I suspect relates to Cleveland Street .
But I'm sure it'll give fishy a boost

The original winter of discontent ....
For anyone who suspects the royal conspiracy has legs here's a few nuggets of coincidence for you ....... ahem

The last investigative report was entered into the files in January 1892

Duke of Clarence dies January 14th 1892

James Kenneth Stephen died February 3rd 1892

Three days later on the 6th a man giving the name Nickley(there were none in London that could be described as a young man) fished out of the Thames after an attempted suicide.
Try saying Netley with a London accent ....

Two days later on the 8th Abberline retires

Nagging little details are the reason the conspiracy theories will never go away .
It's not that people like to believe in them at every juncture ..... it's just that sometimes enough little things seem suspicious and make you wonder

As you might expect I feel no sympathy for Fishy. He’s simply not being honest. I can accept wrong. I’ve been wrong; we’ve all been wrong. Ok, some make a habit of it but I won’t go into that. The Stephen Knight theory has been shredded, destroyed and shown categorically to have been a pack of lies. No one takes it seriously anymore (if they ever did) How can anyone support a theory that has had so many of its core ideas dismissed by cold, hard facts. If Fishy was serious and honest about the case there is only one option. To realise that he’s probably the only person alive who believes it and that there are very good reasons for that and to move on.

Coincidences occur a million times a day and are the lifeblood of the conspiracy theorists. They live off them like a Vampire at a blood bank.

I've no doubt that PAV felt his death wasn't entirely natural due to him cursing Salisbury and Churchill on his death bed .... Churchill , by this time , was nothing but a failed politician .

Could you explain this one PS?

Three days later on the 6th a man giving the name Nickley(there were none in London that could be described as a young man) fished out of the Thames after an attempted suicide.
Try saying Netley with a London accent ....

I have and it sounds nothing like Netley unless you are Dick Van Dyke with a mouthful of hot chips!

Netley/Nickley. Obviously two different men. Another mystery cleared up.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Packers,

Years ago I was authoritively informed that John McCarthy was in the same Lodge as Abberline. The jury is still out on that tempting detail.

As far as I can make out, Abberline joined the Zetland 511 Lodge on 4th December 1889, Passed on 5th February 1890, and was Raised on 2nd April 1890.

Littlechild joined the same Lodge on 7th November 1894, Passed on 5th December 1894, and was Raised on 6th February 1894.

I have no clue as to when Abberline may have left the Lodge. Can you leave, or is it like the Mafia—you're in for life?

If he did leave, I would put the date at around 1906 when Abberline and his wife moved to Bournemouth. But he does not seem to have joined a local Lodge between 1906 and 1929, the date of his death.

Hope it helps.

Regards,

Simon

PS. There is a suspicion that PAV did not die from influenza.

[packers stem]

Feeling a little sorry for fishy here

Simon did indeed destroy all of Knights so called evidence .
There are reasons why the Royal conspiracy won't ever die though , coincidence only goes so far and a number of very dodgy occurrences too close together draw attention.
I suspect they were all to do with Cleveland Street and not JTR though and because of the Sickert tale it becomes difficult to unravel the two .

Firstly
I think there's now sufficient evidence to suggest that it was Walter who made up the story, not Joseph .
Joseph could have embellished more than a little and Knight could have suffered from that.

Joseph was not aware that Gull was the Sickerts doctor when Walter was young. Had he been then he would surely have used that info had he made the 'whole' story up .Anything to add strength would have been used .
I genuinely believe that he believed the story and just wanted to prove it .
Added to that twice someone from NSY pointed people in the direction of Sickert

Here's something I posted some time back of FB .Coincidences ? Maybe , maybe not .

I've no doubt that PAV felt his death wasn't entirely natural due to him cursing Salisbury and Churchill on his death bed .... Churchill , by this time , was nothing but a failed politician .

As i said earlier , all this speculation I suspect relates to Cleveland Street .
But I'm sure it'll give fishy a boost

The original winter of discontent ....
For anyone who suspects the royal conspiracy has legs here's a few nuggets of coincidence for you ....... ahem

The last investigative report was entered into the files in January 1892

Duke of Clarence dies January 14th 1892

James Kenneth Stephen died February 3rd 1892

Three days later on the 6th a man giving the name Nickley(there were none in London that could be described as a young man) fished out of the Thames after an attempted suicide.
Try saying Netley with a London accent ....

Two days later on the 8th Abberline retires

Nagging little details are the reason the conspiracy theories will never go away .
It's not that people like to believe in them at every juncture ..... it's just that sometimes enough little things seem suspicious and make you wonder

[packers stem]

Hi Martyn,

The best information I can offer is that Warren was a Freemason, as was Donald Swanson. Abberline and Littlechild came post-WM to the brotherhood. I don't know about Monro, but Anderson never rolled up his trouser leg.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

I seem to remember reading that Abberline left the lodge when he retired and Godley joined ?

Wasn't It discovered that McCarthy was possibly a freemason ?
May suggest he wasn't an Irish Catholic possibly ?

Nick

[Ginger]

sir Winston Churchill who was 8 years older than gull had a major stroke in 1949 and was elected prime minster in 1951 suffered two more strokes in 52 and 53 and went on to run the country and the foreign office .

I don't think it entirely fair to judge a mortal man against the standard of Winston Churchill.

[mpriestnall]

Thanks Simon.

Martyn