Stephenson AS a Suspect

[Howard Brown]

There is also no documented proof that Donston DIDN'T leave the hospital during the day. You can't claim there is no proof he left without giving a nod to the fact that there is NO PROOF one way or another. If there were day passes for family visits, if his doctor allowed him to take a day constitional, a pressing need to go home and visit the family on the odd weekend.

Thats true Ally...there isn't any proof he didn't leave during the day.

No proof one way, means no proof the other. And as for why I am arguing this, the same question is rightly turned back to you. You seemed desperate for someone to take you up on this thread. You even started it, admittedly to hammer some believers. What's your "need"' to argue this?

Not to hammer 'em and never desperate, but in all sincerity,to see how the argument "for" Stephenson would materialize based on the concept that he faked his complaint. Thats all. Anyone is free to believe in what they wish.

I also don't "need" to debate the points...its not a case-solution in the scheme of things...I just like talkin' 'bout D'onston.

[Ally]

Howard,

There is also no documented proof that Donston DIDN'T leave the hospital during the day. You can't claim there is no proof he left without giving a nod to the fact that there is NO PROOF one way or another. If there were day passes for family visits, if his doctor allowed him to take a day constitional, a pressing need to go home and visit the family on the odd weekend.

No proof one way, means no proof the other. And as for why I am arguing this, the same question is rightly turned back to you. You seemed desperate for someone to take you up on this thread. You even started it, admittedly to hammer some believers. What's your "need"' to argue this?

[Ally]

Mike,

Up til now, I had not really considered a motive for RDS. I have merely been arguing that his placement at the hospital does not remove him from the "possible". Was it possible? Yes. But then of course you get into ' was it "plausible"'?

Earlier on this thread, Howard made some sort of comment about "means, motive and opportunity", saying that Donston never had a motive. This is a complete misrepresentation of the "means, motive and opportunity" schtick. What motive does any serial killer have in killing scores of women? That is something no one understands until they catch them, interrogate them, and find out where the wiring went bad. Why would Bundy kill random women because they had long dark hair? Who knows? Oh because they looked like an ex? What possible real motive is that? None. It's screwed wiring in his head. With serial killers, motive doesn't apply. They kill. Period.

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

Setting aside the impossible-to-prove security up on the Currie Ward during that particular time frame for the moment....and yes, anything "could" happen in any given establishment, hospital and jail included...may I ask why you are supporting the notion that it could have happened the way it has been suggested in the case of RDS...when I am pretty sure you don't honestly believe it went down that way.

Because I get the impression that you are simply supporting the idea in order to keep Stephenson afloat solely on the baseless premise that Stephenson faked his condition, which is something that no one could determine from any precedent in Stephenson's life.

Let me just add this to the mix, Al...

Stephenson, to the best of our knowledge, never left the LH during the day. His correspondence with Stead, some of which which Marsh saw and mentioned to Roots on the 24th of December, could have been given directly to Stead if RDS had walked or taken a cab to the PMG.

Why on earth would anyone...not just RDS....but anyone who has serial murder in mind wait until the evening or even worse, early morning when that would be the most suspicious/risky time to do so to request an hour or so of legstretching time? Its as if Stephenson, who was no dumb cookie, completely tossed common sense into the wind.

Back to you,dear.
****************

Dear Pilgrim:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
Anyone wishing to pose Stephenson as a bona fide contemporary ( 1888 ) and/or modern ( Post-Aleister Crowley to present ) suspect, please use this thread.

From what little I've read about Stephenson there would seem to be sufficient reason to suspect him of having had a criminally vivid imagination. So, I guess, in that respect, he would be guilty of at least one crime. Which perhaps makes it understandable that some people would come to suspect him of these murders.

There is also the fact of course, that Stephenson is supposed to have been suffering from an 'illness' known to have been of a rather vague character, sometimes including (what might be interpreted as) psychosomatic symptoms. And of course, Stephenson "injected" himself into the investigation, with his claims about the "writing on the wall" in Goulston Street. Most propbably in order to divert the investigation all the way over to France. A criminally vivid imagination, no doubt. And his "diversive injection", when did it happen ? Hadn't he already been fingered as a possible suspect ?

Personally, I have found it most safe to file Stephenson's statements under "Contemporary Witnesses, too imaginative and/or perceptive for their own good." But of course, that decision may have been caused by a certain prejudice in his favor.

His imagination also was his meal ticket.... in particular, the plagiarized episode in Borderland, which is virtually verbatim from an 1836 novel by his "hero" Lord Lytton, entitled, the Coming of the Great Race*....the part about the witch in the Italian hills... and the Haggard-inspired stories in early 1889, from whence his "relationship" with Mabel Collins began. I'm not so sure its a "criminally vivid imagination", no offense...but rather he fancied himself a "adventure story" writer.

Some folks have theorized that he displayed signs of OCD...unprovable,for sure...but yes, it has been suggested.

RDS was "fingered" as a suspect for the first time by Marsh, as you know. Its through the O'Donnell Manuscript and Aleister Crowley where we hear of him next. All I can suggest,Pilgrim, is to read the O.D. and see for yourself what I/we mean about how absurd it is. Maybe you could set up a thread here on Casebook for O.D. discussion like we have on the Forums.

That RDS profitted from the murders outside the LH walls...while he was confined there is without doubt. His earnings from the Stead piece and perhaps...perhaps...the advance he recieved for stories for his 1889 contributions,inspired by his first article in early December of 1888 were part of the reason he seems to be out of control during December.

He went in the LH, most likely, an alcoholic...or at least a regular drinker. He came out sober. His behavior is rather manic ( fitting up Davies...his barroom scene with Marsh....and the content of his letters ) and might indicate that his being too perceptive for his own good was a reaction he had to and of this new salubrious lifestyle....which didn't last too long,as you know, since he's right back in the LH in May of 1889 for 70 more days as a chloral hydrate abuser.


* This was revealed by Canadian Ripperologist Mark Franzoi back in 2006.

[Pilgrim]

Anyone wishing to pose Stephenson as a bona fide contemporary ( 1888 ) and/or modern ( Post-Aleister Crowley to present ) suspect, please use this thread.

From what little I've read about Stephenson there would seem to be sufficient reason to suspect him of having had a criminally vivid imagination. So, I guess, in that respect, he would be guilty of at least one crime. Which perhaps makes it understandable that some people would come to suspect him of these murders.

There is also the fact of course, that Stephenson is supposed to have been suffering from an 'illness' known to have been of a rather vague character, sometimes including (what might be interpreted as) psychosomatic symptoms. And of course, Stephenson "injected" himself into the investigation, with his claims about the "writing on the wall" in Goulston Street. Most propbably in order to divert the investigation all the way over to France. A criminally vivid imagination, no doubt. And his "diversive injection", when did it happen ? Hadn't he already been fingered as a possible suspect ?

Personally, I have found it most safe to file Stephenson's statements under "Contemporary Witnesses, too imaginative and/or perceptive for their own good." But of course, that decision may have been caused by a certain prejudice in his favor.

My Regards.

[Mike Covell]

Let's say for a second that RDS could get out the hospital, what then Ally?

He does his black magic rituals?

I am intrested to know what motive you have in mind for RDS.

I know there is no proof other than the sources i have already sited and that human error could play a part in that, so lets imagine the gates are open, and RDS could come and go as he please, what then?

Mike

[Ally]

Howard,

When you show precedent that a hosptal has better security than a jail cell making an in and out absolutely impossible, then you can claim that. But until such time as you prove that there was absolutely no possible way for a person to get in and out of the hospital, precedent suggests that the security would not have been better than a jail.

A hospital has NEVER had better security than a jail. Period. Therefore, when people escape from jails, bribe guards and stroll out unimpeded, it is logical to conclude that the same thing could happen at a much less secure venue like a hospital.

A hospital is NOT as secure as a jail. Period.

[Howard Brown]

No, Howard you are wrong. The most likely thing to have happened is what can be presumed to have occurred in logical argument. Past precedent suggests that gates would not have been scrupulously attended to. Past precedent indicates night watchmen would have fallen asleep. Past precedent suggest that people who want to get out, can get out. So that is what can logically be considered to have occurred in absence of any proof to the contrary.

Ally:

When you show the precedent for any of these conditions on that ward,I'll agree with you.

Oh yeah right because this is COMPLETELY beyond the bounds of possibility. How about a RECENT modern hospital stay of someone I know who was checked into a hospital room at 1 in the afternoon and NO ONE checked on them until 8 AM THE NEXT DAY! With modern conveniences like call buttons, ward checks etc. Hospitals are NOT well run and well maintained in modern times with modern conveniences with modern security. It is completley ludicrous to expect it to have been better in the slums of Whitechapel.

Ally:

Was your friend in an area which was locked down at night...so as to prevent insy-outsy ? I didn't think so.

Brooklyn or Verrazano-Narrows? I'll toss the Cross-Bronx in 'cause I love ya.

[Ally]

No, Howard you are wrong. The most likely thing to have happened is what can be presumed to have occurred in logical argument. Past precedent suggests that gates would not have been scrupulously attended to. Past precedent indicates night watchmen would have fallen asleep. Past precedent suggest that people who want to get out, can get out. So that is what can logically be considered to have occurred in absence of any proof to the contrary.

As for who "escapes" hospitals, it is misleading to say who "escapes", the correct word would be "leave". The people at the hospital were not chained to their beds or their rooms.

Oh...thats right... Except in this instance, where all these factors had to come into play at once.

Lazy watchmen, bribable watchmen, unsupervised gates, indifferent fellow patients, slaggard doctors and nurses,

Oh yeah right because this is COMPLETELY beyond the bounds of possibility. How about a RECENT modern hospital stay of someone I know who was checked into a hospital room at 1 in the afternoon and NO ONE checked on them until 8 AM THE NEXT DAY! With modern conveniences like call buttons, ward checks etc. Hospitals are NOT well run and well maintained in modern times with modern conveniences with modern security. It is completley ludicrous to expect it to have been better in the slums of Whitechapel.

[Howard Brown]

Prove the gate was scrupulously guarded and there was no human error.- Ally

I can't do that and don't have to do that...you know better than that,Ally. Its up to those who defend the notion that the gates were unattended to and night watchman Sleepy Mike Covell was restin' his feet up sawing wood at 3 A.M.

Considering that logic and precedent suggests that even jail cells are not scrupulously attended to or locked, considering logic and past precedent suggests that human error does occur, considering that logic and past precendent proves that night watchmen do fall asleep at their posts, one can logically presume this happened at a hospital. So logic and precedent makes those assumptions VALID. It is not logical to presume that the gate of a hospital was more stringently attended to than the gate of a jail cell so in fact, it would be incumbent on the person arguing FOR a more stringent security at the hospital to prove it, not the person arguing what past precedent and logic would dictate occurred--that there was opportunity for a person who wanted to leave, to leave.

Who escapes hospitals...and then returns? People who do escape hospitals don't wanna be there in the first place...and resist returning if and when apprehended. Same goes for mental institutions.

Oh...thats right... Except in this instance, where all these factors had to come into play at once.

Lazy watchmen, bribable watchmen, unsupervised gates, indifferent fellow patients, slaggard doctors and nurses, and a change of clothes stashed under the chin of the lion statue at the LH.

I still ain't buyin' it Al....and speaking of buying...howzabout my bridge?

[Ally]

Prove the gate was scrupulously guarded and there was no human error.

Considering that logic and precedent suggests that even jail cells are not scrupulously attended to or locked, considering logic and past precedent suggests that human error does occur, considering that logic and past precendent proves that night watchmen do fall asleep at their posts, one can logically presume this happened at a hospital. So logic and precedent makes those assumptions VALID. It is not logical to presume that the gate of a hospital was more stringently attended to than the gate of a jail cell so in fact, it would be incumbent on the person arguing FOR a more stringent security at the hospital to prove it, not the person arguing what past precedent and logic would dictate occurred--that there was opportunity for a person who wanted to leave, to leave.

[Howard Brown]

Er...no. We don't know he couldn't have left the hospital. You are presuming that the security of the hospital was as tight as a jail cell, when we know it wasn't and we know people still manage to escape from jails! But we are presuming D'onston could not possibly have escaped from a hospital? That's making assumptions also and ruling him out based on evidence you don't have.

Without the original baseless claim that Stephenson faked neurasthenia,ask yourself whether you would even present,much less defend, an idea along these lines. Its never been incumbent on anyone to "disprove" he could leave or didn't leave the hospital, mechanically,..but on those who presume that he did for the reason that he was the Ripper.

Comparing jailbreaks to "hospitalbreaks" is a poor comparison. People who go to hospitals go there for one reason and those who go to jail for another.




You are presuming that the gate was religiously locked every night. You are presuming that there was never any human error. You are presuming he couldn't have taken advantage of the gate being opened for an emergency. You are presuming he couldn't take advantage of the gate being left open by accident. You are presuming that he couldn't have bribed a freaking night watchman at the hospital when the last 3 prison escapes here in the states happened because the prisoners bribed and became buddy-buddy with the guards! So it can absolutely happen and precedent shows that it has. We are talking about a hospital here, not a maximum security prison.

You are assuming that there wasn't scrupulous attention paid to the ward in question. Prove it.

You are assuming that the human error, in this instance,facilitated Stephenson in his "nocturnal adventures". Prove it.

You are assuming that had the gate been left unlocked,that he coincidentally left on those 4 ( not 5, since Harris & Co. dismiss Tabram ) nights. Prove it.

You are assuming that he had any money at all in order to bribe nightwatchmen.

It can happen...once more...in unsupervised hospitals or hospital wards. It didn't happen here. In order to return to the hospital, he would have had to re-enter the same gate with the same watchman on duty and every other swinging schwantz on that ward oblivious to his return.

I still have that bridge over here for sale,Al

[Ally]

Er...no. We don't know he couldn't have left the hospital. You are presuming that the security of the hospital was as tight as a jail cell, when we know it wasn't and we know people still manage to escape from jails! But we are presuming D'onston could not possibly have escaped from a hospital? That's making assumptions also and ruling him out based on evidence you don't have.

You are presuming that the gate was religiously locked every night. You are presuming that there was never any human error. You are presuming he couldn't have taken advantage of the gate being opened for an emergency. You are presuming he couldn't take advantage of the gate being left open by accident. You are presuming that he couldn't have bribed a freaking night watchman at the hospital when the last 3 prison escapes here in the states happened because the prisoners bribed and became buddy-buddy with the guards! So it can absolutely happen and precedent shows that it has. We are talking about a hospital here, not a maximum security prison.

[Howard Brown]

I would like someone to tell me what does a headache look like? How can any doctor measure it or "prove" a patient has one? I would have been more impressed by the Donston was ill and in the hospital if his illness wasn't such a completely made up one. And perhaps the very simple reason he faked illness was to get himself a free bed. Sneaking out of a hospital in modern times isn't all that difficult to do and that's when the nurses are supposed to check on you in the middle of the night which they never remember to do. Sneaking out of a hospital back then would have been a cinch.

It was not a cinch...in the Currie Ward. I proved it myself that a person could leave a hospital,in modern times,last year with an I.V. hooked up to my arm at all hours of the night...but not if I had been locked in at night.

As for the nightwatchmen turning him in to collect the reward, please. If he were the Ripper, do you really think the only five times he ever left the hospital in the middle of the night was those five times he happened to kill? For all we know he could have had a standing arrangement with the night watchman, a bud of his whom he schmoozed into letting him go out on the town for a tipple and tickle once a week.

Yeah, and for all we know he could have had hookers sent up to his ward along with a couple o' bottles of gin...and a bullwhip. Please.

The fact remains,regardless of how much some of us try to squeeze 10 pounds of sand into a 5 pound bag, he could not leave the ward,much less the hospital...and in particular due to the fact had he been caught doing so...not in the commission of any crime,mind you, but just bebopping around outside...he would have lost his bed in that ward and been jettisoned into the street.

[Ally]

I would like someone to tell me what does a headache look like? How can any doctor measure it or "prove" a patient has one? I would have been more impressed by the Donston was ill and in the hospital if his illness wasn't such a completely made up one. And perhaps the very simple reason he faked illness was to get himself a free bed. Sneaking out of a hospital in modern times isn't all that difficult to do and that's when the nurses are supposed to check on you in the middle of the night which they never remember to do. Sneaking out of a hospital back then would have been a cinch.

As for the nightwatchmen turning him in to collect the reward, please. If he were the Ripper, do you really think the only five times he ever left the hospital in the middle of the night was those five times he happened to kill? For all we know he could have had a standing arrangement with the night watchman, a bud of his whom he schmoozed into letting him go out on the town for a tipple and tickle once a week.