Stephenson AS a Suspect

[Ally]

Howard.

You keep saying that the WARD was locked down at night. Not so. The hospital gate was closed. A vastly different thing than you are attempting to make it seem.

[Howard Brown]

That ain't no wise man, that was me,Ally.

Those two pearls of wisdom were written well before we found out that Donston was in a ward that was locked down at night. I don't know why you are intentionally overlooking this fact which I have repeated several times already on this thread. We being all those who were unable to go to the LH and ask them about procedures from 120 years ago....which is exactly what Mike Covell did.

Come to think of it...keep defending the fairy tale that he waltzed around at night. This is fun and gettin' funner....

You mentioned him slipping a couple of bucks to a night watchman so he could go out and hit a couple of tappys ( the only place he could or would go to get a belt of booze ).

Nope. Wrong. The bars were closed or closing by that time. You knew that.

You mentioned the night watchman turning a blind eye to RDS or anyone else who might have enough dosh.

Right. Some guy is gonna jeopardize his "career" or job by letting some putz out at 2 A.M. or 3 A.M. with a bribe of a few pence so this stranger can go look for poontang or walk around the neighborhood for fresh air at that time?...Gimme a frigging break,Ally.

All the support I gave towards Donston back in the Paleozoic Age was based on him being in a ward where he was NOT locked in at night. You knew that too. You should be ashamed of yourself and give yourself one mean wedgie for this dredging up of antiquated posts.

If not a bridge, how about a national landmark, like Ally Forge ?

By the way...as with all other things...it ain't over until I say its over.

[Ally]

I am going to end this argument with these words, from a very wise man:

Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard

Post Number: 268
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 8:01 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn

Its not as hard as people think to enter hospitals or leave them for that matter,once they have been recognized or are "familiar" to staff.

and of course

We don't know if RDS was able to leave on his own volition from the hospital. This "confinement" to hospital may very well not have been the actual situation at all. As a man with a possibly bogus "ailment",we don't know if he bullshitted his way with the nurses or doctors... he could have been allowed to leave the grounds. No one is certain one way or the other,not the naysayers,neither the proponents of RDS as the Ripper.

Your attempting now to claim the London Hospital was the equivalent of a maximum security hosptial is bogus. There was one gate. With one guard. Patients weren't locked into their rooms. Patients weren't chained to their beds. There is nothing to say as you have already said, that he couldn't have been allowed to leave the grounds, or "bullshitted the nurses".

Thanks for making my argument for me.

Ta.

[Howard Brown]

Dear Pilgrim:

Please make a note of the following in the Cremers Memoirs section:

1. She lends money to the man she by this time believes is Jack The Ripper.
2. In lending money to "Jack The Ripper", she gives him her address so he can come to her house to collect the "loan". Imagine: "I.O.U. 2 quid....signed, Jack The Ripper."
3. She pulls a "b&e" on him ( breaking and entering ) by looking through his locked trunk and deed box.
4. She wanders off into another neighborhood to find a key which would open his deed box ( without taking the box itself ! ).
5. She purloins the letters which Collins was "desparate" over. Collins feared RDS would use them against her...despite the fact RDS took Collins to court over these letters. Imagine: A blackmailer who takes his intended or potential victim to court in order to take back letters he intends to use against said victim.
6. She accepts the "word" of the man she, by this time, felt might be Jack The Ripper that no further murders would occur. That must have been comforting.
7. She spends the next 40 years under the impression that he is the Ripper, content in the "karmic dispensing of justice in the next life", which is why she never rolled over on him. Comforting to know that the Theosophist Community was so concerned with their fellow man's wellbeing.

There's more Pilgrim as you go along....note that at no time does RDS practice black magic in front of Cremers and Collins comment that he was a "great magician" is simply a statement, not a recollection of any specific incident RDS performed in front of Collins.

Enjoy !
**************************

Lars & Ally and all...

We might want to remember once more that it wasn't simply a matter of RDS being in a hospital like little Joe Bloggs with a case of the mumps with Mommy and Daddy coming to visit via a reception desk and all that.

He was in a locked-down section of the LH. A locked down at night section.

Although the comparision between hospitals and jails is rather weak ( People are somewhat expected to try a jail break...but not a hospital-break ),if we were to make a comparision, I'd think a comparision between a maximum security prison would be apropos, rather than a regular prison.

[Pilgrim]

The Criminally Vivid Imagination.

Dear Pilgrim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown
Anyone wishing to pose Stephenson as a bona fide contemporary ( 1888 ) and/or modern ( Post-Aleister Crowley to present ) suspect, please use this thread.

From what little I've read about Stephenson there would seem to be sufficient reason to suspect him of having had a criminally vivid imagination. So, I guess, in that respect, he would be guilty of at least one crime. Which perhaps makes it understandable that some people would come to suspect him of these murders.

There is also the fact of course, that Stephenson is supposed to have been suffering from an 'illness' known to have been of a rather vague character, sometimes including (what might be interpreted as) psychosomatic symptoms. And of course, Stephenson "injected" himself into the investigation, with his claims about the "writing on the wall" in Goulston Street. Most propbably in order to divert the investigation all the way over to France. A criminally vivid imagination, no doubt. And his "diversive injection", when did it happen ? Hadn't he already been fingered as a possible suspect ?

Personally, I have found it most safe to file Stephenson's statements under "Contemporary Witnesses, too imaginative and/or perceptive for their own good." But of course, that decision may have been caused by a certain prejudice in his favor.

His imagination also was his meal ticket.... in particular, the plagiarized episode in Borderland, which is virtually verbatim from an 1836 novel by his "hero" Lord Lytton, entitled, the Coming of the Great Race*....the part about the witch in the Italian hills... and the Haggard-inspired stories in early 1889, from whence his "relationship" with Mabel Collins began. I'm not so sure its a "criminally vivid imagination", no offense...but rather he fancied himself a "adventure story" writer.

Some folks have theorized that he displayed signs of OCD...unprovable,for sure...but yes, it has been suggested.

RDS was "fingered" as a suspect for the first time by Marsh, as you know. Its through the O'Donnell Manuscript and Aleister Crowley where we hear of him next. All I can suggest,Pilgrim, is to read the O.D. and see for yourself what I/we mean about how absurd it is. Maybe you could set up a thread here on Casebook for O.D. discussion like we have on the Forums.

That RDS profitted from the murders outside the LH walls...while he was confined there is without doubt. His earnings from the Stead piece and perhaps...perhaps...the advance he recieved for stories for his 1889 contributions,inspired by his first article in early December of 1888 were part of the reason he seems to be out of control during December.

He went in the LH, most likely, an alcoholic...or at least a regular drinker. He came out sober. His behavior is rather manic ( fitting up Davies...his barroom scene with Marsh....and the content of his letters ) and might indicate that his being too perceptive for his own good was a reaction he had to and of this new salubrious lifestyle....which didn't last too long,as you know, since he's right back in the LH in May of 1889 for 70 more days as a chloral hydrate abuser.

* This was revealed by Canadian Ripperologist Mark Franzoi back in 2006.

Hi Howard,

Criminally vivid imagination... that was perhaps not all too literally meant. Or perhaps it was. Either way, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with it. Earlier today I read, once more, this article in the Guardian about former Assistant Deputy Commissioner John Grieve, of the Scotland Yard. He started out as a philosophy and psychology graduate (I did not specifically notice that the first time I read it.) and was described in that article as being innovative, unconventional and controversial, and possibly the best detective the Scotland Yard ever had. I would think he may have shown what some conventional police officers might, at times, have found to have been a "criminally vivid imagination". (That is also one reason why I do put some belief in Cornwell's claim that it was John Grieve that suggested Sickert as a possible suspect, by saying that he "always had been wondering about him".) Stephenson was however not a detective, much less an Assistant Deputy Commissioner at the Scotland Yard, so I guess it's understandable that what may have been a truly "criminally vivid imagination" on Stephenson's part could lead some people to see him as "suspect" rather than simply a slightly unconventional but well-meaning citizen.

John Grieve - Art of the (im)possible

And I have already started reading the O'Donnell manuscript.

My Regards.

[Mr Poster]

hi ho Gideon

Ya reckon I am being disingenuos? The longer you spend round here the more you will come to realise that such generalisations slip into the perceived wisdom and befoe you know it the majority of serial killers are turning up at the cop shop and bolsters are arses and no killer has ever changed his MO and so on.

Now i can perfectly well see that the inference should have been that the average Victorian hospital may not have been more secure than a jail.

Which makes me wonder what sort of cretin then produces this:

A hospital has NEVER had better security than a jail.

Perhaps you missed that we now talk about ANY hospital, not just Victorian, NEVER have being more secure than a jail, ever, anywhere, at any time.

The point would have been carried without such a daft assertion.

And given all that, even if the qualifications missing had been made.....the line would have been still invalid given that we 1) know nothing of the hospital where our man was admitted, 2) no nothing about what sort of ward/room he was in and 3) if he was admitted for a slight case of lunacy the security level the place had or had not is fundamentally irrelevant as if disturbed he was probably sedated/stuck in a jacket/whacked with a roll of farthings.

So....discussion of the security of the place is pointless, comparison of its security to that of a jail even more ridiculous to try establish its porosity to patients and the daft sweeping generalisation as to all hhospitals through eternity.....melodramatic and indicative of the empty skull that is usually found round here spouting nonsense.
p

[Ally]

Oh but Mr. Poster is a fool. And an idiot if he can't understand the distinction I made between a hospital and asylum. <-- That sentence was rather redundant wasn't it?

[Gideon Fell]

Sally


If so....the you should keep generalisations such as this stunner:



behind your pearly whites

p

You are surely being disingenuous Mr Poster - it is obvious to any but a fool that the hospital in question here is a common or garden Victorian General Hospital serving the general public.

[Mr Poster]

Sally

We were talking about hospitals, specifically the hospital Donston was in.

If so....the you should keep generalisations such as this stunner:

A hospital has NEVER had better security than a jail.

behind your pearly whites

p

[Ally]

Poster,

Were weren't talking about asylums. We were talking about hospitals, specifically the hospital Donston was in.

[Mr Poster]

hi ho

Im not a great man for absolutes so...

A hospital has NEVER had better security than a jail.

That depends on the hospital. mental hospitals are probably more secure given that the entire gamut of security measures can and are employed plus the added bonus, unavailable to most jails, of being able to keep inmates so sedated they cannot escape.

Victotian mental hospitals were probably even more secure than their jails given the belief in the use of chains, cages, strait jackets and dungeons as means of treatment as well as detention and restraint.

Addmittedly normal hospitals are probably less secure but even normal hospitals have secure depts. which employ much of the same methods as high security nut houses.

A hospitla doesnt need high walls as there is nothing like sedation to curb the wanderings of those so inclined.

So while acknowledging that D'Onston may have been in for kidney stones.....its hardly true to state that hospitals are never as secure as jails.

p

[Howard Brown]

I have no interest or desire in defending him as a contemporary, modern or post-modern suspects. There is no need to defend him. He was, he is, until such time as there is proof to the contrary, he always will be. He was a contemporary police suspect, the length of time is irrelevant. Period. There is no debate. The Green River Killer was a suspect, for a couple of days, interviewed, released and voila! He turned out to be the killer. The length of duration as a contemporary suspect is irrelevant. He was a contemporary suspect. His candicacy as a modern suspect is based in part on his contemporary suspect status and to date, nothing has categorically ruled him out, not even plausible circumstance. I don't need to provide an 'outline of his candidacy as a modern suspect'. He was contemporary, he's current, nothing has ruled him out. The End.

The end? Say it ain't so,Ally !

That he never made it to three days as a contemporary police suspect and that you feel that his modern status has some foundation in fact...well,okay, if thats where your head is at, there's nothing one can do about it. That he made himself a contemporary suspect means nothing and I suppose that since you've read the Cremers Memoirs that thats good enough for you.



The bridge is available and I will even cover shipping charges for the merch.

[Ally]

I have no interest or desire in defending him as a contemporary, modern or post-modern suspects. There is no need to defend him. He was, he is, until such time as there is proof to the contrary, he always will be. He was a contemporary police suspect, the length of time is irrelevant. Period. There is no debate. The Green River Killer was a suspect, for a couple of days, interviewed, released and voila! He turned out to be the killer. The length of duration as a contemporary suspect is irrelevant. He was a contemporary suspect. His candicacy as a modern suspect is based in part on his contemporary suspect status and to date, nothing has categorically ruled him out, not even plausible circumstance. I don't need to provide an 'outline of his candidacy as a modern suspect'. He was contemporary, he's current, nothing has ruled him out. The End.

[Howard Brown]

But of course if you are hinging your entire argument that Donston is eliminated because there is no proof he "faked his complaints" that's already been dashed. Yes, Harris may well have completely made up the idea that Donston faked his illness, and that may be what Harris believed. But he might well have had "neurasthenia" considering it is a "fake" illness to start with. Headache and fatigue and irritability are not something that would have prevented him from being the ripper. Hell, it could have been a contributory cause! I know when I get tired, irritable and have a headache, murder is not only plausible but likely.

No,Ally..the "case against Donston as a suspect" isn't based on Mr. Harris's contention that RDS faked neurasthenia. Mr. Harris, like everyone and anyone else, did not and probably would not have even considered the possibility of RDS faking his complaint, had Mr. Harris or any other theorist known when RDS entered the LH. Thats "all" that that argument or discussion was about.






Whether D'onston faked neurasthenia or not doesn't appear to be the point. It's irrelevant to his candidacy. He was a candidate before it was discovered, and he has been a candidate after the fact. It seems you have a specific need to tear down this particular argument. Why? The Donston case doesn't collapse if this linchpin is pulled.

While I agree that its not a necessary component of whether or not he was a suspect...the statement that he WAS a suspect before "it was discovered", referring to the concept that he "faked neurasthenia" is not true.

He "was a suspect" to a private citizen...whether primarily for his handwriting or for his blabbermouthing in the Inn in early December to George Marsh.

He "was a contemporary police suspect" for 48 hours. The Roots Report does not mention anything remotely close to Stephenson being worthy of future inquiry. At this juncture, he is out of the proverbial loop. Only wishful thinking can "make" him a suspect in the contemporaneous sense.

He ceased to be a suspect..in the contemporary sense, until the 1890-1891 living arrangement with Collins & Cremers. If anyone can take the content of the Cremers Memoirs seriously, then there is no point of me discussing the tome, since what is in the Cremers Memoirs and more importantly what is NOT in it doesn't make him suspicious upon close scrutinization... and which may have, in all likelihood,been fabricated by Mr. O'Donnell since there are no existing letters or correspondence ( sources ) either with dates or any other defining characteristics extant that indicate Cremers actually said or wrote what is alleged to have emanated from her.

He is only a modern suspect based on the effort, primarily by Mr. Harris, to give provenance to these Cremers Memoirs, AND, but not completely, by the absurd notion that Stephenson faked his first complaint and entry into the LH on July 26th,1888.

At this time, I'd like you, as someone who appears to "need" to defend the premise that he is or as you stated,was a contemporary suspect for more than 48 hours....to explain what it is about Stephenson that merits consideration as a viable suspect. Likewise, an outline of why he is a modern suspect would be nice.

Back to you...

[Ally]

But of course if you are hinging your entire argument that Donston is eliminated because there is no proof he "faked his complaints" that's already been dashed. Yes, Harris may well have completely made up the idea that Donston faked his illness, and that may be what Harris believed. But he might well have had "neurasthenia" considering it is a "fake" illness to start with. Headache and fatigue and irritability are not something that would have prevented him from being the ripper. Hell, it could have been a contributory cause! I know when I get tired, irritable and have a headache, murder is not only plausible but likely.

Whether D'onston faked neurasthenia or not doesn't appear to be the point. It's irrelevant to his candidacy. He was a candidate before it was discovered, and he has been a candidate after the fact. It seems you have a specific need to tear down this particular argument. Why? The Donston case doesn't collapse if this linchpin is pulled.