Stephenson AS a Suspect

[Howard Brown]

Good to see you Ivor.

Just to clarify: I made my offer to give you full access in order to discuss your article on Tumbelty and I now make the same offer to discuss D'onston either here or on the Forums or on your site . Just give me a return email and I will glad to oblige you. No fighting, no tricks, and no quarter.

We can discuss the fact that virtually none of the claims Donston made that Mr. Harris promoted were true and you likewise support as being true...

....or we can cut to the Cremers Memoirs, which in all likelihood were not even written by Vittoria Cremers....

...or we can skip to the list Mike Covell has provided....

...or you can explain the two different theories, the first expressed in the Ripper File and how they were revised in the True Face to bring up the totally baseless claim that RDS faked neurasthenia.

Its your call,Ivor.

How

[jmenges]

It is true that, when Mr. Edwards' work was mentioned on the RDS podcast, I said that he, being alive and well (unlike Mr. Harris) was welcome at any time to come on the show and debate these issues. No invitation was made to Mr. Edwards to appear on the RDS show prior to it's recording, and he may not have even listened to the podcast in question and so was unaware of the invitation to appear on a future RDS podcast.

JM

[Mike Covell]

First and foremost Mr Edwards was invited throughout the Ripper Podcast to come and discuss RDS with us, the invite to discuss his research into Tumblety came later.

Secondly, how can a man whose work into Robert D'Onston Stephenson's life call my work "Faulty" I take it you have looked at the chronology on the Stephenson family thread?

If my research is "Faulty" what is the work in MR Edwards Chronology in his book "Jack the Rippers Black Magic Rituals"
1841 Lives at Willows House.....Wrong
1841 Parents wealthy mill owners...Father is, it takes two to make a baby!
1859 Visits Paris.....................Evidence?
1860 Lodge of Alexandria.........Evidence?
1860 Fights in Italy.................Evidence?
1863 Visits West Coast of Africa..Evidence?
1868 Sacked for liasing with prostitutes...Evidence?
1868 Contracts VD...................Evidence?
1878 Visits India......................Evidence?
1887 Anne Deary in regents canal....Evidence?
1888 Kills Gurney..........................Evidence?
1893 Woodhull=prostitute............Evidence?
1904 RDS dissapears..................No he doesn't

Futhermore,

Chapter 11

He only resided at Willows House for a short period of time and lived at other addresses whilst in Hull, and many more throughout the UK!

Army Surgeon......Evidence?
Occultist.............Evidence?
Magician.............Evidence?
Doctor................Evidence?
Solidier...............Evidence?
Prospector..........Evidence?
Murderer............Evidence?
Bolthole.............Evidence?

I hope in this article in Ripperologist you will name your sources Mr Edwards.

[spryder]

From Ivor Edwards:

Howard Brown posted the following words on the STEPHENSON AS A SUSPECT thread on 02-29-2008.
“Besides…he. he.. Mike Covell did a “ professional investigation ” himself and found out that the Curry ward where RDS was…was locked down at night”.

Firstly, RDS was not in Currie ward at the time of his stay during the murders he was in DAVIS ward ( he…he ). Furthermore the wards were not locked only the main exterior doors were. It was a general hospital not a prison!!! Mr Evans of the London hospital has given three previous researches false information myself included and I have a letter from him in which he personally apologises to me for doing so. Mr Evans has a reputation for making mistakes. The wards were NOT locked at night. Besides which the place had dozens of windows and some French doors on the lower levels any one of which a person could gain entry through. The railings of the hospital were far lower than the height of the gate and if I wanted to come and go at night from the hospital the main gate would be the last place I would choose.
If Mike Covell had indeed done a “professional investigation” he would have learnt that the hospital authorities could not stop people getting into the hospital grounds at night to see Merrick. Eventually bars had to be placed on the windows to his rooms simply to stop people from gaining entry. If they couldn’t stop people getting in then it stands to reason they couldn’t stop them from getting out.

I intend to comment further on Mike Covell’s faulty research and opinions in Ripperologist.

On one last note Howard Brown made the following statement yesterday on Casebook to Ally regarding RDS .
“ I have made gestures to Ivor to appear not only on my site, but on Rippercaste to discuss the case.” This is not strictly true…I was asked by Howard to comment on my Tumblety article which appeared in this months Ripperologist. D’Onston or the London hospital was never brought up and no one has asked me to comment on the latter.

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

I know perfectly well that you aren't arguing the point of neurasthenia being faked....but it is this very concept that will segue into the other area which you are supporting or discussing, that being of the security of the Currie Ward. Sine qua non........no faked neurasthenia concept, then no subsequent circular argument between us over the security on the Currie Ward.

Without "Harris's point of view" which you aren't arguing, then the question is raised why you would argue the point of hospital security in the first place if this damned faked neurasthenia concept did not exist. No Harris,No Ally contra Howie.

Why would the security on the Currie Ward even be an issue if there was never the mention of faked neurasthenia, the "solution" to Harris's gaffe on why RDS entered the LH in his book, The Ripper File, 5 years prior to his second conclusion as to why RDS entered the LH.

Even in the Ripper File, Mr. Harris, again merely theorizing which was his right of course, speculated that RDS was "too ill" after the Kelly murder and as a result of what "illness" RDS had subsequent to the Kelly murder, that this is what put him in the LH. There is nothing "wrong" with speculating this because Mr. Harris found out that RDS DID go to the LH from the Cremers Memoirs.

The difference between the faked neurasthenia claim and the original "too ill" claim is simply that in the latter case, Mr.Harris did not know why he was in the LH at the time of the publication of the Ripper File...and when he did find out, he opted to concieve the baseless notion that he faked his complaint in his third book. Thats all. He had the dates wrong and I believe that he did the wrong thing or lets just say, he pulled a little ledgerdemain and foists this theory onto the community. I sure fell for it back in the day.

Removing this argument, or concept that he "faked" anything is what has caused us here and elsewhere to bicker over the byproduct of the bogus and baseless claim, that being the security of the LH's Currie Ward.

I hope that this is clear now. I am just as convinced that he did not attempt to sneak out of the Currie Ward as you are of the possibility that he could have,Ally. And without the seminal argument of a bogus complaint, we would have never approached this subject.

P.S. And you know D'onston is toast like I do.

[Ally]

The faked neurasthenia concept is baseless and all this nonsense that you are tossing about does nothing to erase that fact.

Except that this sentence right here shows that you are so jonesed on your particular point of view and argument that you don't even bother to read what other people wrote because I have said at least half a dozen times now that I am not arguing the claims about faked neurasthenia. I AM NOT ARGUING HARRIS' POINT OF VIEW. I have said it over and over and over and over and you keep coming back to faked neurasthenia when it has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything I have ever said on this thread. The faked neurathenia is IRRELEVANT to my argument so my argument would NOT be TRYING to "erase the fact" because once again: my. argument. is. not. related. to. in. any. way. shape. or. form. any. thing. to. do. with. faked. neurasthenia. NOTHING to do with faked neurasthenia.

My argument has always and still is this simple statement AND ONLY THIS SIMPLE STATEMENT: NO one currently living on this planet has sufficient in-depth information about what occurred on a nightly basis at the London Hosptial to say, with ANY degree of certainty, whether or not it was possible for D'onston to slip out unnoticed. PERIOD.

Do you see the words "neurasthenia" ANYWHERE in the above sentence? No.

Now who's not speaking English? Donston is compelled to kill...seeks treatment in a hospital for his fantasies...and yet goes out on 4 nights anyway and kills?? This is even more convoluted than the "Barnett kills 4 strange women to discourage his girlfriend from going out at night to sell herself" argument.

I am assuming that once again, in your haste to argue the argument you think the person is making rather than the one they actually are, you completely skipped over my statement regarding that supposition- " See what unbridled and idiotic what ifs get you?" Go back and read what I actually said again and absorb it, then respond. It's more helpful that way.

[Howard Brown]

Howard,

He works there now. He didn't work there in 1888. He has no idea what they did or didn't do on some random night over a century ago.

Instead of assuming he "doesn't know what they did over a century ago", contact him and present this argument to him.


Attempting to say that he has intimate knowledge of a building's daily operations over a hundred years ago based on current standards is completely disingenuous. Not to mention, he DOES work there. What's he going to say? yeah this place is a shitehole anyone can get in and out even today?

He wasn't making a salespitch about the Hospital, he was merely describing the standard operating procedures of the hospital at the time.

And as to your long suppository on his neura vs. addiction...ah I see, so now we are to presume the staff was so "sympathetic" that they, being desperate money tight boot you if you are missing are now warm-hearted generous people who are willing to cover for some random person's addiction? So supposition about the hospital staff being willign to bend the rules is okay as long as it supports your particular ideas of what was going on? Hmmmmmmmm.

As I mentioned it was merely a thought, a theory, not a fact. It doesn't matter to me in the least if Stephenson went into the hospital with a severe case of priapism or pimples...

You want to believe that everything is based on Harris creation of the "fake neurastenia" because you have a bug up your butt recently about Harris and Ivor. Fabulous for you but disingenuous.

Now you have revealed how disingenuous... and common you can be if you want to be.... My efforts to show that Stephenson was a suspect for 2 days tops isn't at all connected to anything I have "against" Mr. Harris. I've made many references to his contributions to Ripperology and admire his style. I never met,spoke, or had anything to do with the man. The faked neurasthenia concept is baseless and all this nonsense that you are tossing about does nothing to erase that fact. Mr. Harris was not the attending physician and his assessment of the physical condition of Stephenson is worthless and a hoax.

I don't want to "believe" in anything in particular, but rather provide the community with the basis for the original source and up until recently, mainstream view or article of faith that Stephenson "faked" his complaint. He didn't.

I have made gestures to Ivor to appear not only on my site, but on Rippercast to discuss the Case. FYI.



I am arguing strictly from the idea that D'onston was actually ill, and in the hospital for real reasons, and being psychologically compelled to kill managed to do it anyway if indeed he was the Ripper. If he was the Ripper, perhaps he decided to check himself in in a vain attempt to "cure" his fantasies. See what unbridled and idiotic what ifs get you? Nowhere. But my sole argument is this: if Donston wanted to get out of the London Hospital, for whatever reason, be it booze, drugs or murder, I sincerely doubt that the hospital security and staff was sufficient on a daily basis to prevent it, and there is nothing a hundred years after the fact that's going to prove that it was. Precedent and logic indicate that lapses in security are frequent, often and pervasive in places that require far greater security than a ward in a hospital.

Now who's not speaking English? Donston is compelled to kill...seeks treatment in a hospital for his fantasies...and yet goes out on 4 nights anyway and kills?? This is even more convoluted than the "Barnett kills 4 strange women to discourage his girlfriend from going out at night to sell herself" argument.

[Ally]

Howard,

He works there now. He didn't work there in 1888. He has no idea what they did or didn't do on some random night over a century ago.

Attempting to say that he has intimate knowledge of a building's daily operations over a hundred years ago based on current standards is completely disingenuous. Not to mention, he DOES work there. What's he going to say? yeah this place is a shitehole anyone can get in and out even today?

And as to your long suppository on his neura vs. addiction...ah I see, so now we are to presume the staff was so "sympathetic" that they, being desperate money tight boot you if you are missing are now warm-hearted generous people who are willing to cover for some random person's addiction? So supposition about the hospital staff being willign to bend the rules is okay as long as it supports your particular ideas of what was going on? Hmmmmmmmm.

You want to believe that everything is based on Harris creation of the "fake neurastenia" because you have a bug up your butt recently about Harris and Ivor. Fabulous for you but disingenuous. I am arguing strictly from the idea that D'onston was actually ill, and in the hospital for real reasons, and being psychologically compelled to kill managed to do it anyway if indeed he was the Ripper. If he was the Ripper, perhaps he decided to check himself in in a vain attempt to "cure" his fantasies. See what unbridled and idiotic what ifs get you? Nowhere. But my sole argument is this: if Donston wanted to get out of the London Hospital, for whatever reason, be it booze, drugs or murder, I sincerely doubt that the hospital security and staff was sufficient on a daily basis to prevent it, and there is nothing a hundred years after the fact that's going to prove that it was. Precedent and logic indicate that lapses in security are frequent, often and pervasive in places that require far greater security than a ward in a hospital.

[Howard Brown]

Really? They were locked either internally or externally? If they actually were locked, and that was an assurety, wouldn't they know HOW they were locked. That's a guess. Saying they were locked either internally OR externally means --they don't know! It's a pure guess. Now I am presuming that the Currie ward was it's own building within a compound that had only one door to the building which was locked by an armed guard and had no windows on the bottom floor and was sealed by barbwire fence within the compound of the whole london hospital which was also patrolled by guards and guard dogs and etc.


Ja,dollink ! It vas just like Stalag 17 mit der nice Dobermans und der big light on der tower mit der nice man mit der machine gun.

Mr. Evans specified that the ward was locked down at night and that should suffice. He works there.



And to paraphrase Howard yet again "'no one is saying he strolled through the hospital all bloody and saying hey look at me". Why would Donston stay there? If indeed he were the Ripper, I dunno, free lodging, free food and all the drugs you can eat? I'd ask why'd he bother going to the hospital in London in the first place...why even make the journey to specifically go to the London Hospital unless he had a reason for being there at that time.

He did have a reason for going there,Ally...and maybe two reasons at that. Check this out and tell me what you think...

The first was that he might have used the Hospital in the capacity of a "dry out tank". He didn't have to confess to the LH that he was using chloral ( for his leg injury,perhaps ) and had been drinking for umpteen years. He may very well have been just trying to get his act together. I think its very likely that the hospital figured out that he was an alcoholic, but in a sympathetic gesture, classified him as a "Neurasthenic". The second time he goes, however, we see no such pussyfooting. He is designated as and determined to be a chloral hydrate abuser. Then again, the original diagnosis of him being a "neurasthenic" is the most likely. You must remember, that like Mr. Harris, I ain't no doctor.

The other reason for going was that in conjunction with his substance problems, he had no place to go. I think it likely that he contacted his brother in Islington prior to his stay in the LH and it was determined that he would get better treatment in the LH.



See ...what ifs are stupid. The security of the Hospital, no matter what you want to claim is up for debate. You cannot claim with any actual certainty that the wards were locked or the gates were locked. 100 years after the fact, people can claim whatever they want, but reality often proves a totally different story....like the recent fabulous story of the guards falling asleep on duty CONSTANTLY and NIGHTLY at the Nuclear Power plants in our country. but I guarantee you, ask anyone and they'd say the nuclear power plants are run ship tight


Although everyone understands that not everything is as it appears ( regarding security in this instance ), there is no "what if" in regard to the security of the LH. They had it. To what degree,no one can be sure of to maximum certainty.

You are assuming that on the nights in question, August 31,Sept.8,Sept 29 and Nov.8-9, that there was a chance that the security of the Currie Ward was less than sufficient to maintain the old bugger.

By that rationale, I hereby will add every other man in that ward to the suspect list here on Casebook, since they could have also gone out on those nights . Maybe even together with Stephenson in some big breakout with camouflage on and bungee cords.

I might also add every other male patient in the 5 mile radius of London, since their security was probably deficient as well. I would add Yorkshire, but everyone knows they're really sick up there.

All of this emanates from the baseless assertion that Stephenson was faking his illness during the first stay in the LH.

Mr.Harris had no problem believing that Stephenson was really ill when he wrote the Ripper File. None at all,Ally. In fact, in his haste to put the Ripper File together and promote the Crowley inspired nonsense, he didn't check the dates of entry and had no idea of what he was in the LH for !!!!

Think about it,Ally. Harris denounced ( and rightfully so ) Crowley's declarations of his intimacy with Jack The Ripper...and yet actually drags out the premise of the ties via the O'Donnell Manuscript into his writings as some sort of evidence against RDS. There IS no evidence against RDS except his big mouth in December of 1888, which was quickly shut on December 26th.

Needless to say...back to you.

[Ally]

Mike,

Do make sure to ask him why, if there was only access to London Hospital granted through one 7 foot tall gate with a caretaker/guard only opening it for emergencies and the like, why would htey have had to lock the individual wards to keep out the prostitutes and the thieves?

And P.S no offense to Mr. Evans at all, but 100+ years down the line he doesn't know what ACTUALLY went on on a nightly basis, he only knows what was supposed to have gone on a fact even he would admit to if you asked him, I imagine.

[Mike Covell]

Jonathon Evans knew the doors were locked period.

Stating internally or externally is not a guess i am simply stating that the doors were locked, he just wasn't sure which ones were locked internally or externally!

I have left him a message to clarify it and hopefully get me something in print to back up his claims.

Currie and Davis were both on the third floor, and the only maps that the archives have show the ground floor with a location key to the wards above.

The exit/entry doors were situated thus
Three at the front of the building,
One at either side,
and the map doesn't cover the rear.

As for the reason for being there
He was ill!
He had tried a spell in Brighton (or are we suggesting that he went there to plan it and top Edmund too!)

returned to London where his brother Richard was living, and booked himself into the hospital because he was ill.

Why not just stay at his brothers place?

[Ally]

Really? They were locked either internally or externally? If they actually were locked, and that was an assurety, wouldn't they know HOW they were locked. That's a guess. Saying they were locked either internally OR externally means --they don't know! It's a pure guess. Now I am presuming that the Currie ward was it's own building within a compound that had only one door to the building which was locked by an armed guard and had no windows on the bottom floor and was sealed by barbwire fence within the compound of the whole london hospital which was also patrolled by guards and guard dogs and etc.

And to paraphrase Howard yet again "'no one is saying he strolled through the hospital all bloody and saying hey look at me". Why would Donston stay there? If indeed he were the Ripper, I dunno, free lodging, free food and all the drugs you can eat? I'd ask why'd he bother going to the hospital in London in the first place...why even make the journey to specifically go to the London Hospital unless he had a reason for being there at that time.

See ...what ifs are stupid. The security of the Hospital, no matter what you want to claim is up for debate. You cannot claim with any actual certainty that the wards were locked or the gates were locked. 100 years after the fact, people can claim whatever they want, but reality often proves a totally different story....like the recent fabulous story of the guards falling asleep on duty CONSTANTLY and NIGHTLY at the Nuclear Power plants in our country. but I guarantee you, ask anyone and they'd say the nuclear power plants are run ship tight.

So here's the question of the day. If those 7 foot tall main gates at the hospital with only one access point and only opened for emergencies were so gosh darn fail safe, why would they have to lock the wards at night to keep prostitutes and beggars out?

[Howard Brown]

Whatever next, Stephenson riding out of the hospital on the shoulders of Joseph Carey Merrick!!

Mike...don't give anyone any ideas,pardner !!!

Thanks for the info from Mr. Evans. We should have had that for Ally before...

...or does this even matter and shall she continue her valiant effort to get D'onston outta the Hospital?

Stay Tuned.

Now we turn to our sponsors....The Pompadour Cosmetique Company and Vittorias' Secret for these words....

[Mike Covell]

The word I recieved from Jonathon Evans was thus,

The wards were locked either internally or externally at the buildings entry and exit points.

This was done to stop,
Prostitutes entering with clients,
The Homeless entering to sleep,
Thieves from entering to steal,
and Fenian terrorist attacks.

On top of that, the main gate was locked and a gate keeper stayed in the adjoining lodge, allowing only staff in and out and of course emergancies.
Again for the reasons I have stated above.

Both Currie and Davis wards had upto 20 beds, they recieved a weekly visit by the specialist, but there was a nurses station in either the wards or on the main corridors.

Surely someone would have seen a man entering the hospital covered in blood!!

And if, as you suggest the gatekeeper was accepting bribes, why not accept them from thieves. We know there were no thefts from the London Hospital as all the business was recorded in both Yearbooks, and Minutes of Hospital Meetings.

If Stephenson was going to carry out such a daring escape and re-entry into the hospital, why bother staying there in the first place? After all there was plenty of other places to stay in the area.

Whatever next, Stephenson riding out of the hospital on the shoulders of Joseph Carey Merrick!!

[Howard Brown]

Ally:

You keep saying that the WARD was locked down at night. Not so.

According to the information that was given to Mike Covell, it was.