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  • #76
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    agree harry. what barret probably didn't realize was that murder was VERY rare back then and that more likely than not it would have been all over the news. surely if there was a murder in Manchester at the time it would be recorded. another reason the diary is an obvious fake.
    Wow. Abby, are you sure that you can back that claim up ("that murder was VERY rare back then")? It feels instinctively unlikely to me.

    Cheers,

    Ike
    Iconoclast

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Trapperologist View Post
      I still don't see why "Manchester" excludes "Bolton" or "Farnworth". Wasn't his brother living in Moss Side? Isn't that presumably where he would have gone? So why doesn't he say "Moss Side"? Or it was "cold and wet" in "Moss Side"?
      Perhaps because "Moss Side" has the feel of a district, even down to its very name. Bolton was, and remains, very much a town in its own right, and has even applied for city status.

      I've never heard or met anyone say they're from Moss Side, but I've heard (and met) plenty of people who declare that they hail from Rochdale, Salford and Bolton. The latter three even have reasonably high profile rugby and football teams, but I've not heard of any such sporting "ambassadors" in Farnworth and Moss Side.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #78
        Thanks, Sam. That makes for a decent debunk if this suspicious death was in Bolton proper and the murder was specifically stated to be “in Manchester”. But the suspicious death was in Farnworth and I only see the murder as being in conjunction with a visit to Manchester. I know we all say “Manchester Murder” but I don’t really see that in the text.

        Comment


        • #79
          This article belongs here about a suspected murder trial. Jane Hodgson aged 42 mother of six found dead of suffocation (presumed drowned) in Horwich (a cotton mill town) near Manchester on 14th April 1888. Lodger was accused of her murder after an all day pub crawl. She was found suffocated face down in water at the bottom of a ravine with her shawl folded unusually. The profile of the deceased certainly fits the profile of at least 4 of the 5 C5 victims with the exception she was not a known prostitute, but to another eye may have appeared so. Not a smoking a gun, but very very mysterious.

          The article is too big to upload here for full clarity. Alternatively visit the British Newspaper Archive Website and look for the Manchester Courier July 21st 1888 edition (page 6).


          Click image for larger version  Name:	fetch?id=737218&d=1594324496.jpg Views:	0 Size:	170.6 KB ID:	737259
          Last edited by erobitha; 07-10-2020, 01:35 PM.
          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

          Comment


          • #80
            Some other interesting deaths attributed as either "suffoctaion" or "suicide" in and around Manchester around these times that could be of inetrest to people:

            Elizabeth Cadman found in the canal, assumed suicide and drowned at Reddish near Stockport (5.5 miles from Manchester). She was heard screaming "Oh Jim". An acquinatnce was called James but he had an alibi.
            //Manchester Courier (Sat 18th Feb 1888 - p12)//

            Click image for larger version

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            Mary Ann Ferguson (19) seamstress date of death unknown. Location of body found unknown. Cause of death suffocation. Lived with her mother at 15 Black-ditch, Cross-lane, Salford (2 miles of Manchester).
            //Manchester Courier (Sat 7th April 1888 - p14)//

            Click image for larger version

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            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by erobitha View Post
              This article belongs here about a suspected murder trial. Jane Hodgson aged 42 mother of six found dead of suffocation (presumed drowned) in Horwich (a cotton mill town) near Manchester on 14th April 1888. Lodger was accused of her murder after an all day pub crawl. She was found suffocated face down in water at the bottom of a ravine with her shawl folded unusually. The profile of the deceased certainly fits the profile of at least 4 of the 5 C5 victims with the exception she was not a known prostitute, but to another eye may have appeared so. Not a smoking a gun, but very very mysterious.

              The article is too big to upload here for full clarity. Alternatively visit the British Newspaper Archive Website and look for the Manchester Courier July 21st 1888 edition (page 6).


              Click image for larger version Name:	fetch?id=737218&d=1594324496.jpg Views:	0 Size:	170.6 KB ID:	737259
              Just to add some more colour to the 'Horwich Mystery' of April 1888.

              Horwich was a Cotton mill town and was part of 'Cottonopolis':

              "Horwich was expanding rapidly as a result of the arrival of the L&Y Loco works in 1884. In 10 years the population had more than tripled from 4,000 to almost 13,000 causing much social upheaval with so many 'newcomers' arriving so quickly. New houses, shops, businesses, churches, schools, pubs, clubs and public buildings were springing up everywhere with areas in the vicinity of the Loco Works and the town centre being particular 'hives of activity'. Horwich Station on Church Street was the focus of much of this new social and economic activity."
              http://www.horwichheritage.co.uk/looking-back.php


              "...the village towards Bolton, and is separated from Anderton by the river Douglas; it comprises 3230 acres. The population is chiefly engaged in extensive bleaching-works and cotton-mills. The bleach-works of Messrs. Joseph Ridgway and Company were commenced about 1781; and the print-works of Messrs. Chippendale and Company, employing 500 persons, about the same time. Of three cotton-mills, the two largest belong to Messrs. W. and W. Bennett, and Peter Gaskell, Esq. A good stonequarry is wrought. Here is a station of the Bolton and Preston railway."
              https://www.british-history.ac.uk/to...land/pp559-562

              "In the mid 19th century cotton mills were built by W. & W. Bennett and Peter Gaskell."
              https://placeandsee.com/wiki/horwich
              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                Some other interesting deaths attributed as either "suffoctaion" or "suicide" in and around Manchester around these times that could be of inetrest to people:

                Elizabeth Cadman found in the canal, assumed suicide and drowned at Reddish near Stockport (5.5 miles from Manchester). She was heard screaming "Oh Jim". An acquinatnce was called James but he had an alibi.
                //Manchester Courier (Sat 18th Feb 1888 - p12)//

                Click image for larger version

Name:	cadman.jpg
Views:	274
Size:	201.2 KB
ID:	737391


                Mary Ann Ferguson (19) seamstress date of death unknown. Location of body found unknown. Cause of death suffocation. Lived with her mother at 15 Black-ditch, Cross-lane, Salford (2 miles of Manchester).
                //Manchester Courier (Sat 7th April 1888 - p14)//

                Click image for larger version

Name:	salford.png
Views:	267
Size:	126.2 KB
ID:	737392
                Thanks, Erobitha.

                Miss Ferrington's death is obviously a case of a young woman choking to death on blood and phlegm from a lung diseases, presumably tuberculosis, so it doesn't concern us.

                The case of Miss Cadman is more interesting, and I can picture Feldman running wild with it, so perhaps his researchers hadn't located it.

                The woman yelling 'O Jim, Jim!' would have been a particularly nice touch.

                A longer account shows that Cadman definitely left a suicide note, hence the verdict of suicide.

                Still, what makes it a mysterious case is that witnesses heard cries of 'murder' and 'Jim!' coming from the canal. They couldn't immediately locate the woman, but the canal was dredged and her body recovered.

                I suppose her yells were either in despair or an attempt to implicate her alleged lover, James, though if this was her plan, her own suicide note undermined her efforts. Then again, suicides aren't particularly known for rational thinking.

                Certainly a bizarre case. The jury apparently asked to have the handwriting on the suicide note authenticated, thinking that maybe 'Jim' had planted it.

                A genuine Victorian potboiler. I wonder if she was found to have been pregnant?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                  Thanks, Erobitha.

                  Miss Ferrington's death is obviously a case of a young woman choking to death on blood and phlegm from a lung diseases, presumably tuberculosis, so it doesn't concern us.

                  The case of Miss Cadman is more interesting, and I can picture Feldman running wild with it, so perhaps his researchers hadn't located it.

                  The woman yelling 'O Jim, Jim!' would have been a particularly nice touch.

                  A longer account shows that Cadman definitely left a suicide note, hence the verdict of suicide.

                  Still, what makes it a mysterious case is that witnesses heard cries of 'murder' and 'Jim!' coming from the canal. They couldn't immediately locate the woman, but the canal was dredged and her body recovered.

                  I suppose her yells were either in despair or an attempt to implicate her alleged lover, James, though if this was her plan, her own suicide note undermined her efforts. Then again, suicides aren't particularly known for rational thinking.

                  Certainly a bizarre case. The jury apparently asked to have the handwriting on the suicide note authenticated, thinking that maybe 'Jim' had planted it.

                  A genuine Victorian potboiler. I wonder if she was found to have been pregnant?
                  hey rj
                  liars and conmen weave the truth and lies to make it seem beleiveable and intriguing. Barret threw in the murders in manchester to keep it interesting and add to the mystery. as well as point another finger at maybrick.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                    hey rj
                    liars and conmen weave the truth and lies to make it seem beleiveable and intriguing. Barret threw in the murders in manchester to keep it interesting and add to the mystery. as well as point another finger at maybrick.
                    I agree with that.
                    Maybrick would have known, and encountered a lot of people over the course of the year the diary was supposedly written.
                    Without the unnamed Manchester victim, and Mrs Hammersmith, the diary is just a list of names mentioned either in ripper lore, or at the Maybrick trial.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      hey rj
                      liars and conmen weave the truth and lies to make it seem beleiveable and intriguing. Barret threw in the murders in manchester to keep it interesting and add to the mystery. as well as point another finger at maybrick.
                      Yes, I agree, they are fictional, but the somewhat idle question I posed on the other thread is why would a hoaxer introduce fictional elements into his hoax, as it would tend to be counterproductive?

                      The "lies," as you call them, might be intriguing, but they wouldn't be believable if no record of them could be found outside the text. In fact, one could reasonably argue that using fictional elements is amateurish, as it tends to give the game away.

                      In other words, if a hoaxer starts sprinkling his bogus diary with fictional names and events, it wouldn't take long for the average researcher to throw his arms in the air in exasperation and skepticism.

                      What I suspect happened is that the hoaxer introduced a Manchester murder because he/she was worried that having a Liverpool man committing murders in relatively far-off London might be a bit of a stretch, so they 'salted the mine,' as it were, by having Maybrick first commit a murder closer to home: Manchester. As I suggested before, it is kind of a "stepping stone" by introducing the idea that Maybrick killed outside of Liverpool while on business trips, or personal trips, so the idea of him being Jack the Ripper wouldn't seem so outlandish.

                      Of course, none of this relates to the apparent suicide of Miss Cadman in February 1888.

                      I think it is simply an interesting case on its own. There are one or two elements in it that might make Sherlock Holmes pick up his violin for a nice long think.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                        Yes, I agree, they are fictional, but the somewhat idle question I posed on the other thread is why would a hoaxer introduce fictional elements into his hoax, as it would tend to be counterproductive?

                        The "lies," as you call them, might be intriguing, but they wouldn't be believable if no record of them could be found outside the text. In fact, one could reasonably argue that using fictional elements is amateurish, as it tends to give the game away.

                        In other words, if a hoaxer starts sprinkling his bogus diary with fictional names and events, it wouldn't take long for the average researcher to throw his arms in the air in exasperation and skepticism.

                        What I suspect happened is that the hoaxer introduced a Manchester murder because he/she was worried that having a Liverpool man committing murders in relatively far-off London might be a bit of a stretch, so they 'salted the mine,' as it were, by having Maybrick first commit a murder closer to home: Manchester. As I suggested before, it is kind of a "stepping stone" by introducing the idea that Maybrick killed outside of Liverpool while on business trips, or personal trips, so the idea of him being Jack the Ripper wouldn't seem so outlandish.

                        Of course, none of this relates to the apparent suicide of Miss Cadman in February 1888.

                        I think it is simply an interesting case on its own. There are one or two elements in it that might make Sherlock Holmes pick up his violin for a nice long think.
                        yes of course. but if anyone found a murder in manchester that wasnt well known erobitha et al
                        would have an orgasm. classic liar tactic. and if they dont theyll keep looking till they do.
                        hope springs eternal for the gullible and foolish.
                        Last edited by Abby Normal; 06-06-2021, 01:58 AM.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment

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