The Diary — Old Hoax or New or Not a Hoax at All?​

[rjpalmer]

Hi Herlock -

Go to the 4 November tape

Is it just me, or do we hear the following exchange starting at 24:58?

Alan G: So, who's handwriting is it?

Mike B: That's the whole point.

AG: Who's handwriting is it?

MB: Anne's.

Alan G: Exactly...

Cheers, RP

[Iconoclast]

But, Ike, surely there's an obvious alternative explanation for that exchange?
Gray says "You wrote the manuscript" to which Barrett replies, "Doesn't anyone understand, it's 50/50".
Perhaps Gray interrupted but Barrett might simply have continued on with what he'd already started to say, which was that the diary was a joint effort.
Is the recording available to listen to, please?

Granted, it reads a lot less revealingly now that you've skipped the crucial line: ' ‘You said Anne did it. You're still saying it’s all her handwriting?'

Check it out, Maybrick sticky:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/maybrick-james/828407-alan-gray-michael-barrett-cassette-recordings-1994-1996

It's very clear that Barrett has replied to Gray without thinking, Gray thus asks Barrett an awkward question, and Barrett realises he's cocked-up so he changes the story's tack (as ever he did), making the handwriting an equal effort between the two. Remember, he's got Alan Gray telling himself that Barrett is the author of the scrapbook text and Barrett jumps too quickly on what he thinks is an open goal when - in reality - he's facing a very uncomfortable own goal. Gray states that Barrett wrote the manuscript and Barrett happily concurs before realising his mistake and immediately retracting and in the process showing himself to be the liar that he unquestionably was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This was from Seth Linder's transcription which was a mix of transcription and summary from him; however, I have heard the tape (Linder lists it as Barrett-Gray, November 5, 1994, but I seem to recall it was the day before) and - if I recall correctly without actually checking back right at this instance - he does says 'it's fifty-fifty'.

Suddenly there is a breakthrough. MB shows him a letter he has written to Doreen Montgomery. AG is struck with the handwriting. ‘I’ve seen that Y somewhere else. I haven't seen that in the Ripper Diary, have I. By Christ I've tumbled you at last. You wrote the manuscript.
Now it will be easy for MB to prove.
MB: 'Doesn't anybody understand’.
A thought crosses AG's mind. ‘You said Anne did it. You're still saying it’s all her handwriting?
MB: ‘it’s 50/50’. It appears they did a bit each.
AG: 'And we can prove that?’.

Spoiler alert: Barrett never once proved it to anyone, ever.

Apologies for my early caution and slightly caustic expectation, but I am now awaiting the interpretation which informs us that Barrett was not saying that he and his wife had shared the handwriting credits equally (in much the same way as the scratches in the watch were not tens of years old in 1993 and the initials on the wall are not there, et cetera).

Can't wait for this one. My dear readers, don't say you didn't hear it here first ...

But, Ike, surely there's an obvious alternative explanation for that exchange?

Gray says "You wrote the manuscript" to which Barrett replies, "Doesn't anyone understand, it's 50/50".

Perhaps Gray interrupted but Barrett might simply have continued on with what he'd already started to say, which was that the diary was a joint effort.

Is the recording available to listen to, please?

[Iconoclast]

At least, we know Anna did the study the right way--blind, not knowing it was the alleged diary of Jack the Ripper. And yet she predicted the author was a multiple personality like a serial killer.

I think we have to be very cautious on this point, Lombro2 - I don't think we can be 100% certain she didn't know who the author was supposed to be. We only know what we were told she knew. I'm not casting aspersions here - I'm simply noting that we don't know for certain what Anna Koren had been told before she saw the scrapbook.

[Iconoclast]

Hi Ike,
Do you have the full quote where Barrett expressly said that half of the diary writing was in his hand and half was in his wife's?
Couldn’t the two-word quote you've provided of "fifty fifty" just mean that he was saying they were jointly responsible for creating the diary?

This was from Seth Linder's transcription which was a mix of transcription and summary from him; however, I have heard the tape (Linder lists it as Barrett-Gray, November 5, 1994, but I seem to recall it was the day before) and - if I recall correctly without actually checking back right at this instance - he does says 'it's fifty-fifty'.

Suddenly there is a breakthrough. MB shows him a letter he has written to Doreen Montgomery. AG is struck with the handwriting. ‘I’ve seen that Y somewhere else. I haven't seen that in the Ripper Diary, have I. By Christ I've tumbled you at last. You wrote the manuscript.
Now it will be easy for MB to prove.
MB: 'Doesn't anybody understand’.
A thought crosses AG's mind. ‘You said Anne did it. You're still saying it’s all her handwriting?
MB: ‘it’s 50/50’. It appears they did a bit each.
AG: 'And we can prove that?’.

Spoiler alert: Barrett never once proved it to anyone, ever.

Apologies for my early caution and slightly caustic expectation, but I am now awaiting the interpretation which informs us that Barrett was not saying that he and his wife had shared the handwriting credits equally (in much the same way as the scratches in the watch were not tens of years old in 1993 and the initials on the wall are not there, et cetera).

Can't wait for this one. My dear readers, don't say you didn't hear it here first ...

[Lombro2]

The person who write this diary, according to Anna Koren, the world’s [greatest] handwriting expert and what have you, has got a multiple, and I mean multiple, because I’m quoting....Anna Koren, Anna Koren states quite categorically. Paul Feldman flies her in from Israel. She’s the world’s leading handwriting expert, agreed? Or not? Will everybody agree with me because that’s what’s in the Diary. So Anna Koren gets flied in, right, from Paul Feldman, she looks at the Diary. She doesn’t know it’s the diary of Jack the Ripper.....I never hand wrote it, Anne hand wrote

Doesn't it look like Mike is saying Anne must be schizoid have multiple personalities because Anna Koren said this was the handwriting of a "multiple"?

At least, we know Anna did the study the right way--blind, not knowing it was the alleged diary of Jack the Ripper. And yet she predicted the author was a multiple personality like a serial killer.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The thing is, Mike Barrett also said that it was "fifty-fifty" - half in his hand and half in Anne's. He said it to Alan Gray. He was probably pissed then, and he was certainly pissed when he was at the Cloak & Dagger Club. So what do we do? What do we think is the truth (because it clearly can't be both)? And we can't ignore one because of the drink but believe the other (because of the drink). Oh costly quandary of Barrett!

I know, let's just believe the version we like ...

Hi Ike,

Do you have the full quote where Barrett expressly said that half of the diary writing was in his hand and half was in his wife's?

Couldn’t the two-word quote you've provided of "fifty fifty" just mean that he was saying they were jointly responsible for creating the diary?

[Iconoclast]

She doesn’t know it’s the diary of Jack the Ripper.....I never hand wrote it, Anne hand wrote it, that’s the difference.,,,Anne actually wrote it in her handwriting......

The thing is, Mike Barrett also said that it was "fifty-fifty" - half in his hand and half in Anne's. He said it to Alan Gray. He was probably pissed then, and he was certainly pissed when he was at the Cloak & Dagger Club. So what do we do? What do we think is the truth (because it clearly can't be both)? And we can't ignore one because of the drink but believe the other (because of the drink). Oh costly quandary of Barrett!

I know, let's just believe the version we like ...

[Lombro2]

...I couldn’t keep up with the mortgage so I thought to myself, okay, I’ve been writing for David Burness, Celebrity magazine, I’ve been writing for Chat Magazine, I’ve been writing for Look-In Magazine. I’ve been writing for all these magazines. And I thought to myself, okay Michael, let’s do a Sir Walter Scott. Now anybody is in here, is shall we say familiar with English literature? Sir Walter Scott, if you know anything about Sir Walter Scott. Sir Walter Scott was in a hell of a lot of trouble in the past. And what Sir Walter Scott done, he wrote himself out of it. I mean, literally, he wrote himself out of it. He wrote Ivanhoe. And that’s a god given fact. And that is a god given fact. So I thought to myself, I’ll do the same, I’ll write myself out if it. I’ll write myself out of the – So I thought to myself I’ll write myself out of it. So I wrote myself out of it. Well, I thought I wrote myself out of it. … I’m serious.....So when I wrote it, all of a sudden the Diary gets on the shelf [by which he means in the shops], the Diary becomes genuine and I know and I totally know that the Diary is false. I know because I know I’ve wrote it, but I haven’t wrote it. Anne’s wrote it. Now always remember that fact ladies and gentlemen. Anne wrote it. It’s in her handwriting. Now always remember that fact. That’s a god given fact. So all of a sudden, oopsie daisie. I said, “I’m not having this”.

I said I think I’ve got the diary of Jack the Ripper here, do you understand? Doreen fell for it left, right and centre. So all I had to do was come out and find the Diary of Jack the Ripper and write it. It took me eleven days flat to write..... if she wouldn't have believed the con, I would never have carried on with the con.....I was doing a con. Right....I said I think I've got the Diary of Jack the Ripper. Right. I'm not "sure", I'm not "certain" but I think I really have got it. Right. Remember, I know it's a con... looked in the bookshelf and I found Pan Books. So I phoned Pan Books up and I said "Listen, I really sincerely believe I own the diary of Jack the Ripper - however, I don't have 100% proof. I can't prove it." And they advised me, they said, "We don't work it this way, we don't work it this way, you need an agent." Emphasise an agent. So, they turned round and said, "Doreen Montgomery"....The red ledger, if you understand me, is so small it's untrue. And I thought to myself "Oh sugarlumps". It's no good...It's a Victorian diary but I thought to myself "no good". So I said to myself "Whoopsie daisy. I've just gone and sold the idea to Doreen Montgomery. Now I've got to produce the goods." Are you with me?...Now I'm stuck...all I've got is a little red diary...So I turn around and I go to Outhwaite & Litherland which is operating.... I want to bring her in now. Anna Koren... The person who write this diary, according to Anna Koren, the world’s [greatest] handwriting expert and what have you, has got a multiple, and I mean multiple, because I’m quoting....Anna Koren, Anna Koren states quite categorically. Paul Feldman flies her in from Israel. She’s the world’s leading handwriting expert, agreed? Or not? Will everybody agree with me because that’s what’s in the Diary. So Anna Koren gets flied in, right, from Paul Feldman, she looks at the Diary. She doesn’t know it’s the diary of Jack the Ripper.....I never hand wrote it, Anne hand wrote it, that’s the difference.,,,Anne actually wrote it in her handwriting......Anne blackmailed me with Caroline. She turned round to me...at the book launch and said I’ll never see Caroline again. I’m telling the truth.....I'll tell you how it hurts. Excuse me ladies and gentlemen. I’ll tell you how it hurts. It hurts there through the heart. It kills me from the heart because Anne has lied and she’s used Caroline as a blackmail threat.....

What do you do with the ink? You put a little bit of sugar in it.....I’ll tell you what, we’ll go down there if there are any shops here open now, and we’ll go and get the ink, and we’ll go and get sugar, when you put the sugar in the ink, and you go… the molecules are totally messed up so therefore you can’t produce the exact ink.....So when you do the Diamine ink, right I’m thinking to myself oh I’ve got Diamine ink here, do you understand what I mean, I thought to myself, ooh sugar lumps here. And I mean literally sugar lumps. I thought to myself I can’t produce that Diamaine ink. That can be traced. That can be traced. So I’m putting sugar in and mixing it all up and about, that can’t be traced.'

Sugarlumps! It all makes sense now! He was writing himself out of a jam and he used sugar lumps. Jam and sugar lumps. And I think there are sugar plums and a nutcracker in there too.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can doesn't have to answer to or agree with me. I don't need to answer to or agree with her. In the same way, neither of us has to answer to or agree with you, et cetera. It seems to be a trick the likes of you, Orsam, and RJ love to play - comparing content from different posters as though that alters the validity of them.



Good God, man, I'm confident that neither Caz nor I care. I'm not sure if I even remember what the question was!



I'm sure that we agree many houses are made of bricks - not all 'agreement' means two people are aligned in any meaningful way.



Another Orsam/RJ/Sholmes favourite trick - eek out every last nuance from a statement and seek to find the error or the non sequitur in order to undermine the post. I accept that something is possible but I really seriously doubt it actually happened. I accept that a white horse called Billy could have trotted through our garden around 4am this morning but I don't accept that it happened. Nitpicking around semantics is a classic Barrett-Believer tactic and I'm amazed at how swiftly you have become the leader of that gang.



If I got up in the morning and found hoof prints across my garden, I'd be more inclined to believe that something I previously thought possible but implausible might actually be more plausible than I'd initially thought. If a reliable witness - say the local GP - had said they had driven past our house around 4am and seen a white horse trotting through our garden, I'd really start to think the possible was plausible. If I had investigated all of the nooks and crannies of our large garden and found a white horse in amongst the trees, I'd really seriously think the possible was very plausible indeed. I'd still want confirmation that its name was Billy, mind. That's a joke before the Barrett-Believers jump on it as an admission of my 'impossible standards' or whatever.

So I think the Barrett claims are implausible because the evidence suggests the scrapbook is consistent with 1888 and that the scratches in the watch were many decades old even in 1993 coupled with the lack of any reliable evidence of the Barretts having any role in the orchestration of a hoax bar Mike's drunken, vengeful mutterings causes me huge hesitation whenever someone puts it to me that the people for whom there is not a scrap of evidence they created a hoax created a hoax. I'm far more circumspect than that. But - at least - I'll agree with you that it is plausible that they were indeed called Mike and Anne Barrett.

To give you a full and proper answer to your very casual question would give me cause to write a book on the subject and this I may well do. But first, I must start my day's work ...

Ike, you asked me a question which suggested it was ridiculous for anyone to say that it was impossible that the Barretts were the forgers, and I told you that this is what Caz seems to be saying. I've no idea why you think my reply was a "trick". I was simply answering your question

Saying "the evidence suggests the scrapbook is consistent with 1888" has nothing to do with whether it's plausible or implausible that the Barretts could have created it. As a matter of fact, the evidence is wholly inconsistent with an 1888 creation. Indeed, it disproves an 1888 creation. It also dates the diary to the very period in which the Barretts could have created it..

What the watch has to do with the creation of the diary, I've no idea. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to date a scratch but that's a completely different issue.

And the "lack of reliable evidence" as you put it, can't possibly have any bearing on whether it's plausible to say that the Barretts could have created it. You are so obviously floundering over this question that one can only conclude that you realise very well that it would be nonsensical to say that a Barrett creation is implausible. You might strongly disagree that they did it, but it can't be said to be implausible.

[Iconoclast]

"How could that not be possible?" Well, that's what I thought I was being told by Caz, Ike. She seemed to be saying they weren't capable of doing it, hence it's not possible for them to have done it.

Can doesn't have to answer to or agree with me. I don't need to answer to or agree with her. In the same way, neither of us has to answer to or agree with you, et cetera. It seems to be a trick the likes of you, Orsam, and RJ love to play - comparing content from different posters as though that alters the validity of them.

So you'll have to address your question to Caz, if you're serious about wanting an answer.

Good God, man, I'm confident that neither Caz nor I care. I'm not sure if I even remember what the question was!

Now that we both agree it's possible ...

I'm sure that we agree many houses are made of bricks - not all 'agreement' means two people are aligned in any meaningful way.

... (even though, in some contradiction to this, you then go on to say that you don't accept the possibility!!!)

Another Orsam/RJ/Sholmes favourite trick - eek out every last nuance from a statement and seek to find the error or the non sequitur in order to undermine the post. I accept that something is possible but I really seriously doubt it actually happened. I accept that a white horse called Billy could have trotted through our garden around 4am this morning but I don't accept that it happened. Nitpicking around semantics is a classic Barrett-Believer tactic and I'm amazed at how swiftly you have become the leader of that gang.

... perhaps you will care to explain to me why you seem to be saying it's not plausible. What's so implausible about it?

If I got up in the morning and found hoof prints across my garden, I'd be more inclined to believe that something I previously thought possible but implausible might actually be more plausible than I'd initially thought. If a reliable witness - say the local GP - had said they had driven past our house around 4am and seen a white horse trotting through our garden, I'd really start to think the possible was plausible. If I had investigated all of the nooks and crannies of our large garden and found a white horse in amongst the trees, I'd really seriously think the possible was very plausible indeed. I'd still want confirmation that its name was Billy, mind. That's a joke before the Barrett-Believers jump on it as an admission of my 'impossible standards' or whatever.

So I think the Barrett claims are implausible because the evidence suggests the scrapbook is consistent with 1888 and that the scratches in the watch were many decades old even in 1993 coupled with the lack of any reliable evidence of the Barretts having any role in the orchestration of a hoax bar Mike's drunken, vengeful mutterings causes me huge hesitation whenever someone puts it to me that the people for whom there is not a scrap of evidence they created a hoax created a hoax. I'm far more circumspect than that. But - at least - I'll agree with you that it is plausible that they were indeed called Mike and Anne Barrett.

To give you a full and proper answer to your very casual question would give me cause to write a book on the subject and this I may well do. But first, I must start my day's work ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, it is possible the Barretts hoaxed the scrapbook. How could that not be possible? I'm not concerned about what is possible, I'm concerned about what is plausible. The fact that I don't accept this possibility for one moment ought to give you a sense that maybe the odds are heavily stacked against it in my mind.

"How could that not be possible?" Well, that's what I thought I was being told by Caz, Ike. She seemed to be saying they weren't capable of doing it, hence it's not possible for them to have done it.

So you'll have to address your question to Caz, if you're serious about wanting an answer.

Now that we both agree it's possible (even though, in some contradiction to this, you then go on to say that you don't accept the possibility!!!), perhaps you will care to explain to me why you seem to be saying it's not plausible.

What's so implausible about it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

You've honestly started to mirror RJ's style of spinning stuff - you're a real convert!

How is saying, "You seem to be terribly keen not to consider what he said in 1999", an example of me (or anyone) "spinning" anything Ike? It's just an observation, isn't it?

[Iconoclast]

But if you are accepting that it's possible that the Barretts forged the diary then I'm not sure there's really any need to continue this discussion, as we both agree. If so, I'm very glad to hear

Yes, it is possible the Barretts hoaxed the scrapbook. How could that not be possible? I'm not concerned about what is possible, I'm concerned about what is plausible. The fact that I don't accept this possibility for one moment ought to give you a sense that maybe the odds are heavily stacked against it in my mind.

[Iconoclast]

You seem to be terribly keen not to consider what he said in 1999.

You've honestly started to mirror RJ's style of spinning stuff - you're a real convert!