Who were they?

[erobitha]

If the expression was being commonly used before 1958, one would expect the Oxford English dictionary to be aware of its usage before 1958.

Anyone here can type 'top oneself etymology' or 'top oneself first usage' into Google Search.

The following entries appear:

The sense of topping oneself first showed up in the mid-20th century, according to the dictionary’s citations.

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2...f%20topping%20 oneself,of%20Prison%20Life%2C%201958).

The first citation meaning commit suicide is from 1958: “He also took my tie and belt so that I could not top myself.”

https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/2012/03/08/top-oneself/

Where is the proof that the expression was in common usage in 1889?

Why would Maybrick have used an expression which was not yet in common usage?

It was common enough usage in 1912 to be used to describe someone hanging themself in a written newspaper article. Dictionary or no dictionary, the evidence is there.

Why could it not have been used in spoken language in 1889?

Are you broken?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What a load of toss. It is a shoddy poorly written hoax.

I send you half the Kidne I took from one women prasarved it for you tother piece I fried and ate it was very nise.

(Letter addressed to Mr Lusk)


So vexed in fact that I returned to the bitch and cut out more. I took some of it away with me. It is in front of me. I intended to fry it and eat it later ...

('Maybrick' diary)



The author of the diary borrowed from both the 'Dear Boss' and 'From hell' letters - both sure signs that it, like them, was a hoax.

[Iconoclast]

If the expression was being commonly used before 1958, one would expect the Oxford English dictionary to be aware of its usage before 1958.

Anyone here can type 'top oneself etymology' or 'top oneself first usage' into Google Search.

The following entries appear:

The sense of topping oneself first showed up in the mid-20th century, according to the dictionary’s citations.

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2...f%20topping%20 oneself,of%20Prison%20Life%2C%201958).

The first citation meaning commit suicide is from 1958: “He also took my tie and belt so that I could not top myself.”

https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/2012/03/08/top-oneself/

Where is the proof that the expression was in common usage in 1889?

Why would Maybrick have used an expression which was not yet in common usage?

Gary? Hello? Is that you, mate?

have you got two minutes?

Yeah. Yeah. I know, it’s another one of them. I know, I know, I couldn’t agree with you more - after all, it’s why I wrote my brilliant Society’s Pillar.

[Blushing] oh, that’s very kind of you, Gary!

[Iconoclast]

It seems that defenders of the diary are absolved of any need to produce an example of this use of English during the seven decades that separate 1888 from 1958.

Show us just one example!

Care to revise your bullshit story?

(Thank you, Sam Gerrard.)

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I don't have to prove anything in 1889. I just have to make the valid point as I did:

Many phrases originate in everyday speech, which may not be adequately documented in written sources. Slang, colloquialisms, and informal language often emerge and evolve in spoken language before they are documented in written form.

The written example I found in five minutes from 1912 is much closer to 1889 than 1958 is it not?

Sleepy time for you I think.

If the expression was being commonly used before 1958, one would expect the Oxford English dictionary to be aware of its usage before 1958.

Anyone here can type 'top oneself etymology' or 'top oneself first usage' into Google Search.

The following entries appear:

The sense of topping oneself first showed up in the mid-20th century, according to the dictionary’s citations.

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2...f%20topping%20 oneself,of%20Prison%20Life%2C%201958).

The first citation meaning commit suicide is from 1958: “He also took my tie and belt so that I could not top myself.”

https://notoneoffbritishisms.com/2012/03/08/top-oneself/

Where is the proof that the expression was in common usage in 1889?

Why would Maybrick have used an expression which was not yet in common usage?

[Iconoclast]

You provided an example and it proves that the expression was in use by 1912, but it does not prove that it was in use yet by 1889.

Oh dear!

They just don't know when to give up!

The clues are all there, man - if you'd just got here a bit quicker ...

[erobitha]

You provided an example and it proves that the expression was in use by 1912, but it does not prove that it was in use yet by 1889.

I don't have to prove anything in 1889. I just have to make the valid point as I did:

Many phrases originate in everyday speech, which may not be adequately documented in written sources. Slang, colloquialisms, and informal language often emerge and evolve in spoken language before they are documented in written form.

The written example I found in five minutes from 1912 is much closer to 1889 than 1958 is it not?

Sleepy time for you I think.

[Iconoclast]

What do we think they will come up with next? Oh, I know - the scrapbook is a hoax because it claims Michael Maybrick wrote lyrics and - of course - everyone knows he didn't!

Anyone got Livia Trina on speed dial?

[Iconoclast]

Oh dear.

My exact thoughts, ero b. Oh dear oh dear.

(Thank you, Martin Fido.)

[Iconoclast]

It seems that defenders of the diary are absolved of any need to produce an example of this use of English during the seven decades that separate 1888 from 1958.

Show us just one example!

Erm, anyone got Gary on speed dial?

[Iconoclast]

The diary is not genuine and here is the proof:
'Perhaps I should top myself and save the hangman a job.'
(Maybrick Diary)
The sense of topping oneself first showed up in the mid-20th century, according to the [Oxford English] dictionary’s citations. Here are some suicidal examples:
“He also took my tie and belt so that I could not top myself” (from Frank Norman’s Bang to Rights: An Account of Prison Life, 1958).
https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2011/12/top-oneself.html#:~:text=The%20sense%20of%20topping%20 oneself,of%20Prison%20Life%2C%201958).

Dear God.

Johnny-Come-Lately still hasn't made it to the party ...

I actually pissed myself laughing at PI's belief that they had cracked the secret code.

You know, the one Gary Barnett disproved about five years ago.

[Iconoclast]

Can someone explain why a document supposedly providing the identity of the Whitechapel Murderer should first see the light of day more than a century after the death of its author?

It is not as though the diary had been buried by its author and then discovered a century later.

Why did it take a century to become newsworthy?

Dear God.

Johnny-Come-Lately still hasn't made it to the party ...

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

My "oh dear" was in relation to the fact I had already provided you a rather excellent example of why your point was wrong. Scroll up.

You are not having a good day. Best you call it a night.

You provided an example and it proves that the expression was in use by 1912, but it does not prove that it was in use yet by 1889.

[erobitha]

Do you realise what you are saying?

You are saying that it took 70 years for a certain colloquial expression to start to appear in print.

Can you give any other examples of such a phenomenon?

My "oh dear" was in relation to the fact I had already provided you a rather excellent example of why your point was wrong. Scroll up.

You are not having a good day. Best you call it a night.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Deleted post

Oh dear.