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  • Maybrick watch in higher resolution

    Click image for larger version

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    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

  • #2
    Maybrick Marriage licence

    Click image for larger version  Name:	7B11A461-2ABC-4576-8165-48DD44F43EEF.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	37.5 KB ID:	763589
    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by erobitha View Post
      Maybrick Marriage licence

      Click image for larger version Name:	7B11A461-2ABC-4576-8165-48DD44F43EEF.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	37.5 KB ID:	763589
      Hi ero b,

      The watch seems to depict 'JN Maybrick' but I believe that the N was actually the end of 'MN' (Mary Nicholls) though it's hard to tell using the naked eye. This would suggest that the 'MN' went down first and then he signed his name around it (if it was the other way around, he left a surprisingly big gap between the 'J' and 'Maybrick'?).

      The marriage certificate is strange (to me) because he appears to have signed himself 'Ja Maybrick'. I've never been able to work that one out (though I have done next to no research into it!). Do you have a view? I can't tell what the third 'initial' is either - the one which conjoins the 'M' in 'Maybrick'. Any thoughts - is it even a letter at all?

      But - hey - how brilliant was Robbie Johnson to have researched Maybrick's wedding licence and copied his signature from it when he scratched it into the old watch Albert had in his drawer? Amazing skulduggery, and certainly fooled me for one! ("Easily done" I hear our dear readers yell in unison!)

      I feel very similar about the 'M' in the 'FM' on Mary Kelly's wall. How uncannily its second half rises, just as it does in the scrapbook. As the 'FM' was published as early as 1972 (Farson), the hoaxer must have seen them and worked backwards to Florence Maybrick therefore James Maybrick and then used the particular format of the 'M' on Kelly's wall throughout the scrapbook. Brilliant!

      And then wrote 'nothing' exactly as it is written in the official version of the Goulston Street Graffito. Fantastic!

      Yer old mucker,

      Ike

      PS Keep the colour pictures coming, ero b - I'm saving them all into my Jack the Spratt McVitie Archive!
      Iconoclast

      Comment


      • #4
        Supervillains like Robbie Johnson are rare. Master forgers only come around once in a lifetime. His "old etching tool" does not let him down here on the watch. To get the double loop in the K so accurate is a testament to his abilities. He must have studied that document for hours in London in the age before the internet. The criminal fraternity will miss one of the greats that's for sure.

        As for the marriage licence, I actually see a W and not an A but I could be wrong.
        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Iconoclast View Post
          I feel very similar about the 'M' in the 'FM' on Mary Kelly's wall. How uncannily its second half rises, just as it does in the scrapbook. As the 'FM' was published as early as 1972 (Farson), the hoaxer must have seen them and worked backwards to Florence Maybrick therefore James Maybrick and then used the particular format of the 'M' on Kelly's wall throughout the scrapbook. Brilliant!
          But look at Erobitha"s post #36 on the "Whitechapel Murders in Colour" thread. Do you see any initials on the wall? I don't. Neither did the doctors or police at the scene.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

            But look at Erobitha"s post #36 on the "Whitechapel Murders in Colour" thread. Do you see any initials on the wall? I don't. Neither did the doctors or police at the scene.
            Actually the higher res version supplied to me by Ozzy did see to show the initials a little more clearly. I would advise people to check the second version I did more carefully.
            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi ero.

              Nice work on the photo enhancement.
              I agree there is a similarity, perhaps in the ‘K but I don’t think the other individual letters look similar.
              The ‘Y’ for example has a very small dropping curve in the handwritten signature, yet he has bothered to engrave a longer different curve onto the watch, which considering the extra effort needed to engrave, seems odd.
              The engraver is clearly not going for a nice aesthetic so why not write the ‘Y as you would by hand?
              Although I do think there is a similar untidiness to both signatures if that makes sense.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Yabs View Post
                Hi ero.

                Nice work on the photo enhancement.
                I agree there is a similarity, perhaps in the ‘K but I don’t think the other individual letters look similar.
                The ‘Y’ for example has a very small dropping curve in the handwritten signature, yet he has bothered to engrave a longer different curve onto the watch, which considering the extra effort needed to engrave, seems odd.
                The engraver is clearly not going for a nice aesthetic so why not write the ‘Y as you would by hand?
                Although I do think there is a similar untidiness to both signatures if that makes sense.
                Anyone who has ever done any form of engraving will tell you it requires an incredible level of dexterity, so it can never be exact. It is never exact when we even write out signatures repeatedly by pen on paper. What you need to look for are casual similarities. In this case, I refer to a double loop on the K. This is one such example if you see close enough there is a double a loop on the top part of the K in both photos. That is very similar.

                The lower case A B R I C to me do look very similar. Bearing in mind an etching tool is like a needle, you won't get the nuance of a nib on the end of a pen using ink to paper.

                The M is the most interesting to me, as I see J and M as being very similar to the licence.
                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                  But look at Erobitha"s post #36 on the "Whitechapel Murders in Colour" thread. Do you see any initials on the wall? I don't. Neither did the doctors or police at the scene.
                  Hi Scott,

                  As ero b has already noted, his #47 shows the FM far clearer, but nevertheless, I could still discern them in #36 even though it was very difficult. If you've ever seen the originals which were first published in the mid-1890s I think (in France?), you'd struggle to make out the 'FM' but you wouldn't struggle from Farson (1972) onwards so I guess you'd have to ask yourself how on earth they appeared and then stayed there in every subsequent version (not simply the version Feldman had analysed in 1992 or 1993).

                  On the subject of the police and the doctors 'not seeing anything', you should add the inquest jury as I believe they were taken there to inspect the scene. You should also think about how much light was naturally available in Kelly's room to see anything on the walls (assuming anyone could take their eyes off the bloodstained bed to see anything unusual about the walls) and therefore how it might be that we can see the 'FM' but those there did not appear to have done so (or certainly didn't appear to say so if they had). This question was answered here on the Casebook many years ago, and is incredibly simple: the photographer was the only person who used flash, and that's how the letters were highlighted. As soon as the flash had passed, so had the light required to properly note what may or may not have been on the unfortunate Kelly's wall.

                  Assuming it was Kelly, of course ...

                  Ike
                  Iconoclast

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Nice image erobitha, thanks for sharing.

                    It's been a long time since I've seen the watch. I know that the initials of the C5 are supposed to be there, but for the life of me I can't find all of them. I've tried to colour in some of the scratches, and can easily see the Maybrick (in orange), CE (Catherine Eddowes), AC (Annie Chapman), and the N interposed in Maybrick (Polly Nichols) but can't see a P or M beside it (all in red).

                    I can see an isolated C (dark green) and to the right of it either ar, or maybe am if the light green bit isn't just random scratches, but those don't correspond to any of the C5. On the right, in blue, maybe WRR or WKR? If the third letter (2nd R) is considered random wear and tear, is what looks like maybe W supposed to be the M and that's the MK for Kelly? There were some random, probably wear and tear marks, on the left (yellow) that appeared about as distinct as the more definite letters, but highlighting them hasn't helped me see anything there, except maybe a lower case squarish b and near the bottom a capitol F (presuming the squiggly bits are not intentional marks).

                    Anyway, I was wondering, are the blue bits considered to be the MK? Are the C and AR/AM thought to mean anything? And I mistaken and there's no ES (LS?) for Stride? If there is, could someone point it out for me. It's probably right in front of me, but I'm not seeing it.

                    Thanks.

                    - Jeff

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                    • #11
                      the light green is supposed to be part of a very faint message "I am Jack". It continues across and the "K" is what you have in sky blue. The rest of the light blue is presumably "M.K."

                      Here's the diagram produced by the watch's owner if you're interested

                      Click image for larger version

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                        the light green is supposed to be part of a very faint message "I am Jack". It continues across and the "K" is what you have in sky blue. The rest of the light blue is presumably "M.K."

                        Here's the diagram produced by the watch's owner if you're interested

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Thanks RJ! I can see a J just above the stamped 2 and 7 in the number, for the "I am Jack", but not an I or the ac. But, of course, images are never as good as viewing the real thing, even high res ones.

                        As I look more, I can see AM, just under the "am" in "I am Jack" and above the upswing tail of the e for Ce (Eddowes) as well (but that's not listed on the owner's diagram, so could just be an artifact).

                        Still can't see the ES or some of the others indicated, but again, images can be like that, and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be.

                        Anyway, much appreciated.

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re the "Ja Maybrick" signature: Victorian men often abbreviated their first names. Sometimes you'll see "Chas." for "Charles", or "Jas." for "James".

                          My grandfather would sign "C.W. for his first and middle name, and then sign his surname.
                          Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                          ---------------
                          Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                          ---------------

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                            Nice image erobitha, thanks for sharing.

                            It's been a long time since I've seen the watch. I know that the initials of the C5 are supposed to be there, but for the life of me I can't find all of them. I've tried to colour in some of the scratches, and can easily see the Maybrick (in orange), CE (Catherine Eddowes), AC (Annie Chapman), and the N interposed in Maybrick (Polly Nichols) but can't see a P or M beside it (all in red).

                            I can see an isolated C (dark green) and to the right of it either ar, or maybe am if the light green bit isn't just random scratches, but those don't correspond to any of the C5. On the right, in blue, maybe WRR or WKR? If the third letter (2nd R) is considered random wear and tear, is what looks like maybe W supposed to be the M and that's the MK for Kelly? There were some random, probably wear and tear marks, on the left (yellow) that appeared about as distinct as the more definite letters, but highlighting them hasn't helped me see anything there, except maybe a lower case squarish b and near the bottom a capitol F (presuming the squiggly bits are not intentional marks).

                            Anyway, I was wondering, are the blue bits considered to be the MK? Are the C and AR/AM thought to mean anything? And I mistaken and there's no ES (LS?) for Stride? If there is, could someone point it out for me. It's probably right in front of me, but I'm not seeing it.

                            Thanks.

                            - Jeff

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	watch.jpg Views:	0 Size:	197.7 KB ID:	763673
                            I would agree your eyesight might not be a a good as it once was. For example you have missed the double loop of the upper part of the K in Maybrick - it is definitely there.

                            This is an enhancement of what is available in the public domain online but obviously access to the original image or even new images would be better.
                            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              “I AM JACK”

                              Subtlety certainly wasn’t their calling card.

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