What. Other Than Diary and Watch, Points to Maybrick As JtR?

[RavenDarkendale]

But no one has yet found anything showing he wasn't in Whitechapel when needed, just as there is no evidence outside the Watch and the Diary that indicates he was.

No proof that he wasn't isn't evidence, it's speculation at best. Certainly the diary and the watch can be called evidence, if you believe them genuine. But if the two had never surfaced, would we still be able to suspect Maybrick? I think not.

Long Liz might not appreciate that.

With her dead, I'm sure she'll forgive me. Once dead, she could care less who did the dirty deed!

The two attacks outside Whitechapel that the Diarist lays claim to....problem is it's not clear from the text that the women actually died.

True. I am not talking about any particular incident, I feel that a serial killer like JtR would have other victims.

Please excuse the shouting.

NOWHERE IN THE DIARY DOES "FM" APPEAR. IT'S NOT IN THERE.

OK, I feel calmer now.

True! But as Tempus has explained ad infinitum, the wording was, and is:
An initial here and an initial there will tell of the whoring mother.

Maybrick's Ripper candidacy lives and dies with the Diary and the Watch.

Therein lies the rub, there is reasonable doubt concerning the validity of both. To accept or reject the diary and the watch, one must decide which set of experts with which one agrees. I still believe "Unproven" to be the right verdict, unfortunately we cannot with certainty vote "guilty" or "not guilty".

I have never understood why Diary threads have to be nasty.

Possibly because there are few other suspects with such a divided argument on evidence. People don't mean to be nasty, they just try to make a point.

Well, Royal Conspiracy supporters can do a heap of vitriol throwing over their theories, bless their dear little hearts!

Always discuss like gentlemen and you don't have to apologize for loosing your temper and/or name calling. You also won't find yourself pacing off 15 paces while holding a dueling pistol...

LOL

Darkendale

[Jenni Shelden]

Its fair to say we wouldnt link them without the diary and to a lesser extent watch.

Jenni

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

There is absolutely nothing to link JTR and Maybrick apart from the Diary and Watch.

That is unquestionably true. But it means he is one of the few Ripper suspects that actually have evidence against them. The vast majority have nothing other than an avalanche of delusional message board postings and/or a poorly written and researched suspect book. If they're lucky they have both. William Gull, anyone?

[Stephen Thomas]

There is absolutely nothing to link JTR and Maybrick apart from the Diary and Watch.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

In all seriousness I am wondering something. Without the infamous diary and watch for evidence, what ties James Maybrick to the crimes? That he did business in London in a street not far from Miter Square doesn't depend on the diary. But are the dates when he was allegedly in London able to be matched up with murder cases?

Well of course there is the small issue of there actually being evidence....obviously most people aren't happy with the provenance . Understandable.

But while a lot is known about the Maybricks I have never seen a detailed time line of Sir Jim's coming and goings. And of course the Diary entries are undated. But no one has yet found anything showing he wasn't in Whitechapel when needed, just as there is no evidence outside the Watch and the Diary that indicates he was.

In the C5, Elizabeth Stride doesn't really fit the pattern. So we will toss her out.

Long Liz might not appreciate that.

So the list will go like this:

Undiscovered murder
Martha Tabram
Polly Nichols
Anne Chapman
Mary Jane Kelly
Undiscovered murder/or murders

The two attacks outside Whitechapel that the Diarist lays claim to....problem is it's not clear from the text that the women actually died.

As for the "FM" evidence in Miller's Court: Let's say the diary is one hundred per cent correct on this statement. Might that not point to only a single murder, that of the victim in Miller's Court. How would that tie Maybrick to any other murder? I put this forward, because what can certainly be interpreted as FM is certainly in the picture of the victim.

Please excuse the shouting.

NOWHERE IN THE DIARY DOES "FM" APPEAR. IT'S NOT IN THERE.

OK, I feel calmer now.

But Nichols and Chapman are two that no one disagrees were JtR victims. Can we prove Maybrick in London at the time of their deaths? Nichols and Chapman are key. If Maybrick can not be placed in the area at the time of these two deaths, he was not responsible for all the JtR (Whitechapel, remember at the time) murders.

See above. We don't know enough about his coming and goings to make either a positive or a negative statement about his whereabouts.

Maybrick's Ripper candidacy lives and dies with the Diary and the Watch.

Hope to stir up a good discussion, don't come here just to fight, please.

I have never understood why Diary threads have to be nasty.

[RavenDarkendale]

In all seriousness I am wondering something. Without the infamous diary and watch for evidence, what ties James Maybrick to the crimes? That he did business in London in a street not far from Miter Square doesn't depend on the diary. But are the dates when he was allegedly in London able to be matched up with murder cases?

I asked about something along this line on Montague John Druitt, so I will use the same criteria to ask about Maybrick.

In the C5, Elizabeth Stride doesn't really fit the pattern. So we will toss her out. Some question Eddows, I cannot see this, I will keep her as a suspect. Some are doubtful about Mary Kelly. The crimes had been getting more and more gruesome, so I will not rule that out either. (My only question there was whether or not the witnesses were correct about seeing her when the body in the room had to be dead. If so, the killer got someone else, and she quietly disappeared.)

So the list will go like this:

Undiscovered murder
Martha Tabram
Polly Nichols
Anne Chapman
Mary Jane Kelly
Undiscovered murder/or murders

Catherine Eddows was murdered in Mitre Square. As noted, Maybrick's London business address wasn't far away. Date is essential to lock this one on Maybrick, but if he was in London at the time, he was certainly close to the crime scene.

As for the "FM" evidence in Miller's Court: Let's say the diary is one hundred per cent correct on this statement. Might that not point to only a single murder, that of the victim in Miller's Court. How would that tie Maybrick to any other murder? I put this forward, because what can certainly be interpreted as FM is certainly in the picture of the victim.

But Nichols and Chapman are two that no one disagrees were JtR victims. Can we prove Maybrick in London at the time of their deaths? Nichols and Chapman are key. If Maybrick can not be placed in the area at the time of these two deaths, he was not responsible for all the JtR (Whitechapel, remember at the time) murders.

Hope to stir up a good discussion, don't come here just to fight, please.

God Bless

Darkendale