Fake!

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Tempus, could you post an image of these letters and handwriting to compare, so we can see for ourselves? Also what is the content of the letters, are they in 'Letters from Hell'?
If the letters were posted in Hornsey I cant see a connection with Whitechapel. Was the memo referred to written by Maybrick or a clerk.
Please clarify.
Regards Miss Marple

Hi Miss marple!

Yes I will try and upload the letters for you. I've got to scan them in first, so it might take some time.

Where the letters were posted, Miss Marple, is irrelevant - especially if JtR lived outside the area.

The memo was written by Maybrick. There are at least a dozen memos knocking about, in one form or another.


Kind regards,


Tempus

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

@ Sir Robert

Well he had a large house, was a business man with a fairly successful cotton importer business. That usually means money, unless some type of vice was draining it away. He probably was respected by the people with whom he came into contact. His drug addiction would make his relations with people sometimes difficult.

He rented Battlecrease, and he was a speculator on the cotton markets. He had another family on the side, gambled, drank and drugged. When he died his estate was basically the life insurance proceeds he had recently bought.

He was smoke and mirrors. Flo made a comment that they had to keep up appearances or the creditors would demand payment.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

What says fake to me about the "Diary" is the author signing himself "Jack the Ripper" when three of Scotland Yard's head honchos agreed that the name and accompanying correspondence were a journalistic invention.

But I'm certain that someone will square this particular circle.

Regards,

Simon

[RavenDarkendale]

@ Sir Robert

Well he had a large house, was a business man with a fairly successful cotton importer business. That usually means money, unless some type of vice was draining it away. He probably was respected by the people with whom he came into contact. His drug addiction would make his relations with people sometimes difficult.

So, yes respected in the community, at least to his face. Behind his back would be a different matter, but if it came to court the antics caused by drugs and mental deterioration would make them fear to say the wrong thing in case he wasn't convicted.

Cheers

Darkendale

[miss marple]

Tempus, could you post an image of these letters and handwriting to compare, so we can see for ourselves? Also what is the content of the letters, are they in 'Letters from Hell'?
If the letters were posted in Hornsey I cant see a connection with Whitechapel. Was the memo referred to written by Maybrick or a clerk.
Please clarify.
Regards Miss Marple

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

. However, we will show that Mr. James Maybrick, a wealthy, upstanding citizen of good reputation, could not have committed these alleged crimes.

Let's put the Diary and the Watch aside for a moment.

Do you believe the "real" James Maybrick was wealthy and an upstanding citizen?

I'm not saying the defense wouldn't say this; I'm asking on the basis of the historical record was Maybrick such a man??

An important question in and of itself, no?

[caz]

Er, Raven, he's meant to be writing down his personal thoughts, not trying to compose music or write songs. He just likes to make up funny little rhymes.

The author is well aware that Michael writes "a merry tune" so surely no further explanation is required. But I'll grant you that a less subtle hoaxer would probably have made more of Michael's fame as a musician and less of his lesser known skills at rhyming verse.

Love,

Caz
X

[RavenDarkendale]

The diary makes it clear that Maybrick does know his brother writes music - "he writes a merry tune". No mention of song lyrics written by either brother (although we now know that Michael did in fact write some), just Michael's superior ability at rhyming verse. And let's face it, he could hardly have been worse at it than 'Sir Jim', could he?

Love,

Caz
X

@ Caz

To which the writer of the diary proceeds to compose rhymes to show that he is as clever as Michael. Wouldn't he have tried to at least make them able to be whistled, if he couldn't write music? I say this because as a poet myself many or most of my poems can be sung. Here for example:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...=1#post1173177

Yeah, David Arthur Pendragon is another alias, much like Ewen Raven Darkendale...

Right back atcha!

Darkendale

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Can you be more precise about that letter Tempus? i have not the diary book at hand as it is in storage. I do have letters from Hell is it in there? Victorians were taught handwriting at school[ copperplate] so there is a generic similarity with the hand writing. It was taught in schools until the 1950s. I was taught it. My handwriting is untidy but I can produce a good style if necessary.


I have gone on in other posts about the tearing out of the pages, having seen handled and owned many Victorian journals, diaries scrap books etc I can only say again, the majority of them are only half or three quarters filled, so acquiring one and tearing out the written pages is a given. Thirty odd years ago Liverpool was one of the great places for dealers to buy Victoriana. when I was doing Portobello market there were several dealers who went up there on a regular basis and come back with very interesting stuff. Scrap books were easy to pick up.
Nothing will convince me the diary is other than a fake, it has more in common with all the great fakes than any real literary discoveries.
Also rationality flies out the window when discussing the diary.
Why would Liverpool businessman Maybrick, unpleasant and drug addicted as he may have been take trips to the East end of London to mutilate and murder obscure whores. There is no evidence for this or that he was intimate with the area There is no motive, he had a mistress and a normal sex life. The dangers involved in going to the east end are far greater and more complex for a middle class man from a different city than a local. If he had such murderous instincts, and hated women so much, he could have started with Flo.
I think he was far too self obsessed to be a murderer, obsessed with his health and selfish. Not the sort of guy to take the sort of uncomfortable risks and gambles involved in being a serial killer.
Innocent people don't need alibis. A guilty person with standing in the community, would make sure he had some.

Cheers Miss Marple

Sorry, Miss Marple, just seen your message. The first letter was sent on the 21st of Nov from Hornsey N and was picked out by the original diary team as being in the hand of one of Maybrick's company memos. The 'J,' 'froms' and 'yous' are particularly striking. The whole flow of the writing is similar. The second was posted the day after in Stoke Newington (again North London) and was picked out by me as being in the same handwriting as the diary -it is very specific. I will try and post them here for you later.

Both these letters were picked out by two different camps, at differing times, as being in a similar handwriting to either JM or the diary writer. Both these letters were sent from the same district (a day after one another); and both these letters were sent in the exact gap when Maybrick could have been in London between the two times he was seeing his doctor in Liverpool (19th and the 22nd of Nov). Yet another coincidence.

The writer of this so-called fake diary really does have incredible luck. He forges a diary without trying to copy anyone's handwriting and then is lucky enough to have two original letters held in the PRO (which he presumably didn't know anything about) that not only match the handwriting of JM, but also his own handwriting. These two letters fitting in exactly with the exact gap when Maybrick could have been in London.

It is not proof, Miss Marple, but it is yet again another remarkable coincidence surrounding the diary.





Kind regards,


Tempus

[caz]

Why was there not a murder inquiry in Manchester? Why doesn't Maybrick know that his brother wrote music not lyrics?

Just a quickie, Raven,

The diary leaves the supposed Manchester attack(s) vague enough to allow for the victim to have survived a strangulation attempt, which she, or the papers, failed to report.

The diary makes it clear that Maybrick does know his brother writes music - "he writes a merry tune". No mention of song lyrics written by either brother (although we now know that Michael did in fact write some), just Michael's superior ability at rhyming verse. And let's face it, he could hardly have been worse at it than 'Sir Jim', could he?

Love,

Caz
X

[miakaal4]

Hi Iain,
Endless apologies old chap, may have got a bit carried away. Still a lot of what I said unanswered though. The way the Maybrick clan behaved while James was dying would have Mr Shelock Holmes dribbling over his magnifying glass! They were as bent as a glass cricket ball.

[RavenDarkendale]

Thanks Raven

That's the best Maybrick post I ever saw.

Well a little humor never hurt anyone, and sometimes eases tension during heated debates. The truth about the diary, watch, and James Maybrick as suspect has yet to be proven either way, guilty or not guilty. It becomes a question of what one believes. One thing for certain most people on either side, guilty or innocent, diary/watch real or fake, will ever admit that they could be mistaken. I'm one of the few that takes the middle ground of we cannot prove anything.

I mean: If the diary is a fake, who forged it and why? How did they learn facts about Maybrick? Where did they learn to write like a deranged person? Why are some clues in the diary present in evidence, even if we require the diary in order to know what to look for? How was the "discovery" of the diary arranged? Why did Barret confess to forgery?

If the diary is genuine: Why was there not a murder inquiry in Manchester? Why doesn't Maybrick know that his brother wrote music not lyrics? Why isn't it written in Maybrick's handwriting? Why are parts of the diary clear and others need to be explained to understand them? Why did it take so long to surface? Why are experts certain that forgery is "impossible"?"

God bless

Darkendale

[Iain Wilson]

I don't think miakaal4 was writing a novel, Iain. Besides, I was more interested in his points than in his Question Marks.

I was referencing the feeling miakaal attributes to the diarist, not miakaal's post.

[Stephen Thomas]

Just humor here friends

Thanks Raven

That's the best Maybrick post I ever saw.

[RavenDarkendale]

I have often wondered if we could take this case to court, using available evidence, just how it would sound to 12 ordinary citizens.

In the dock: James Maybrick, alleged to be Jack the Ripper
Charge: Between four and nine murders, depending on your viewpoint
Evidence for prosecution: The infamous Diary and watch
Position of the Defense: The Diary and Watch are so much bull

Opening argument for Prosecution: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury we intend to prove that the defendant, James Maybrick, alias Jack the Ripper, was the willful and premeditated murder of (insert number) women, all of them poor, pitiful unfortunates. James Maybrick, this monster before you, cut the ladies' throats and then proceeded in the vilest manner to desecrate and mutilate their bodies. We intend to prove that Maybrick wrote all of this down in a diary that has come to light recently, in the most shocking detail, and with no sign of remorse. Maybrick also carved initials of some of his victims inside this gold watch, which the defendant was in the habit of carrying. A confession that he is Jack the Ripper is carved by his own hand inside this terrifying timepiece. We will leave you with no doubt that Maybrick committed murder most foul, and leave you no choice but to find him guilty, and send him to the gallows he richly deserves."

Opening for the Defense: "The Prosecution has spun you a tale of mayhem and murder. No one denies that the crimes of Jack the Ripper are deserving of the ultimate punishment. However, we will show that Mr. James Maybrick, a wealthy, upstanding citizen of good reputation, could not have committed these alleged crimes. We will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the alleged "Diary" is not in Mr. Maybrick's handwriting. We will further show that in point of fact, he never kept a journal of any sort. As for this celebrated watch, the casing is engraved with the initials JO, which are not my client's initials. The whole scheme of the "diary" and "watch" are an attempt to blacken the name of a well beloved citizen, and an attempt to murder him by hangman. You have only one choice: Find Mr. James Maybrick not guilty and return him to his family."

Aside: Neither speech is totally factual, but we are dealing with Lawyer speak!

Judge: Mr. Prosecutor, call first witness

Prosecutor: We wish to call Micheal Barret...

Prosecution leads Barret through the finding of the diary. Defense objects to nearly every question.
Defense cross examination: Questions Barret's honesty, that he confessed to forgery, that the diary is a fake. Prosecution objects to nearly every question.

Long run of expert witnesses, who get to testify when the Prosecution and Defense aren't objecting, quarreling, and being reprimanded by the Judge for their attitudes.

Watch is introduced. The air grows thick with spittle as Prosecution and Defense argue every point.

More experts testify. Judge threatens to throw the lawyers out of court.

Prosecution rests.

Defense calls their own experts. Prosecution rags them on cross examination. The handwriting, paper, ink, tone, facts, etc. of the diary are discussed ad infinitum. The watch case, scratches, and discovery are argued ad nauseum. Maybrick's whereabouts are argued until neither lawyer can stand up.

Defense rests

Closing arguments repeat opening arguments except that each lawyer questions the sanity, the knowledge, and even the parentage of the opposing counsel.

Judge instructs jury that they must render a verdict on facts only, not what they might think of the defendant or victims, and certainly not on the performance of the lawyers.

Jury returns: Verdict is that neither party can prove anything and the suspect being assumed innocent until proven guilty, is free to go as an innocent man,

The lawyers immediately file appeals, and also arrange for a duel: Pistols at 25 paces at dawn...

Just humor here friends

God Bless

Raven