Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Acquiring A Victorian Diary

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by James_J View Post
    (3) On January 30th 1997 Doreen Montgomery received the following statement from Kevin Whay, director of Outhwaite and Litherland. ‘Having searched through our files and archives on either side of the alleged sale dates I can confirm that no such information or lot number corresponding with his [Barrett’s] statement exists. Furthermore we do not and have never conducted our sales in the manner in which he describes.
    Hi Keith. I appreciate your contribution, but with all respect, what is the relevance of posting yet again Kevin Whay's search of the receipts at O & L? Why should any intelligent person consider this evidence of anything, or wish to draw a conclusion based on it, since the search was so obviously flawed?

    Here, once again, is the appropriate excerpt from Barrett's sworn affidavit of 5 Jan 1995:

    "Roughly round about January, February 1990 Anne Barrett and I finally decided to go ahead and write the Diary of Jack the Ripper. In fact Anne purchased a Diary, a red leather backed Diary for L25.00p, she made the purchase through a firm in the 1986 Writters Year Book..."

    Surely, you must be painfully aware that Barrett is in a muddle about the dates. It wasn't "Jan or Feb 1990" it was March 1992. Your own research confirmed this, when you received a receipt for the maroon Diary from Anne, and David Orsam has put a nice neat tidy bow on it, by producing Martin Earle's advertisement. March 1992.

    This is a hard "fact" and indisputable.

    Meanwhile, Barrett's affidavit continues. The maroon diary was a bust, being too small, so now he goes to the auction house:

    "I feel sure it was the end of January 1990 when I went to the Auctioneer, Outhwaite & Litherland..."

    Jan 1990 again, but we already know that this is wrong, don't we?

    You've already proven (or should have proven) to your own satisfaction that this would have actually taken place sometime around March/April 1992.

    So, with respect, why should anyone care that Kevin Whay checked his books for Jan 1990?

    Must we not concede that Mr. Whay was asked to check the wrong dates, and that, in fact, he should have checked Feb-April 1992?

    And further, since this was never done, shouldn't we conclude that Barrett's account of the auction house was never actually disproved?

    In case you or anyone is wondering, I did, in fact, write to O & L twelve or thirteen years ago. They kindly wrote back. The appropriate receipts had been pulped, so there is, in fact, no way of now knowing if Barrett's account is accurate. David Orsam has obviously drawn the same conclusions that I did: the wrong dates were checked.

    As for Caroline Morris's remark about "Mike's circle of writer's." This was supposed to be a joke, I think, but in reality Shirley Harrison states in the 2nd edition of her book that Mike DID in fact belong to a "writer's circle" in Liverpool in the late 1980s/early 1990s when he was working as a freelance writer. These are the sorts of people that should have been chased down and interviewed in 1992-93. We then could have had a more disinterested view of Mike's various talents. Unfortunately, Feldman seems to have been more interested in delving into the obscure genealogy of Alice Yapp, etc. and this avenue was never explored. If I were James I would reinterview Mike's sister. Water under the bridge and all that. All the best. RP
    Last edited by rjpalmer; 01-20-2018, 01:29 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
      Surely, you must be painfully aware that Barrett is in a muddle about the dates. It wasn't "Jan or Feb 1990" it was March 1992. Your own research confirmed this, when you received a receipt for the maroon Diary from Anne, and David Orsam has put a nice neat tidy bow on it, by producing Martin Earle's advertisement. March 1992.
      Forgive me for intervening, but. When exactly did the advert for the maroon diary appear, that is the exact date in March?

      Comment


      • Hi Observer. March 19th, 1992. See the first two or three posts on this thread for the complete details.

        If the red Diary was "too small to be useful" than Barrett would need to chase down something else for his manuscript. Simple logic.

        So why check auction records for Jan 1990?

        Comment


        • Thanks for that.

          Comment


          • [ATTACH]18429[/ATTACH]

            Comment


            • "When I disposed of the photographs from the Album by giving them to William Graham, I kept one back. This photograph was of a Grave, with a Donkey standing nearby." -- Mike Barrett, 5 January, 1992.

              If you punch the words "donkey in a graveyard" in a Google image search engine, the first photo that comes up is an animal graveyard in...of all places...Merseyside, Liverpool, UK.

              See above.

              The donkey is mourning the loss of his friend "Chubby." The photo dates to around 1937 and was evidently a "gag" photo that was making the rounds about the time the Royal Airforce was saving the world for democracy. Barrett's album is said to have once had photographs in it. Case closed?
              Last edited by rjpalmer; 01-20-2018, 02:46 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by James_J View Post
                Hi Abby, Just passing this on from Keith.



                Abby Normal



                Thank you for your welcome and questions. Although I’m not

                officially on board yet – and it is of course subject to the

                Administrators approval as to whether my application is

                accepted – I’ve asked James if he can smuggle in my response!



                At the Liverpool Conference I gave my position as follows –

                that I did not believe James Maybrick penned the Diary

                and neither did I believe it was physically written by Michael

                Barrett. I hear the arguments that JM’s handwriting could

                have altered if internal and external influences were at

                work. The same observation must therefore apply to Michael

                Barrett. From memory I think I am correct in recalling that

                Mike J.G. put up a post where he argued that, although an

                individual’s personality might dramatically change under

                abnormal circumstances and extreme psychological trauma

                and that person’s handwriting have no resemblance to his

                normal, conventional style, nevertheless certain characteristics

                might remain consistent – letter formation and structure – spacing –

                spelling maybe. I don’t know if this is correct but Mike J.G’s

                post was one which chimed very much with my thinking – although

                he expressed it far better than I could. We now have copious

                examples of Maybrick’s formal hand and in a perfect world,

                with funds available, I would be pushing for an expert, scientific

                comparison analysis of the many examples we have of

                Maybrick’s formal handwriting against the handwriting in

                the Diary.



                Do I believe the Diary is an old hoax?

                Do I believe the Diary is a new hoax?

                Do I believe the Diary is the real deal?



                I cannot, I’m afraid, answer any of those questions. I can’t get that far

                because the Diary is still a suspect document without a provenance.

                Up until circa 2004 I accepted Anne Graham’s story, albeit it with reservations

                as there was no evidential support. But, for me, it was the only game

                in town. Mike Barrett had failed to conclusively prove he faked the

                Diary. His sworn affidavits still stand though and cannot be ignored.

                Moreover, Anne’s story, no matter how strange the circumstances

                and motive for her secreting the Diary to Mike via a third person who

                she hoped would not reveal it came from her, at least took the

                chain of transmission back to Tony Devereux and then back to her.

                That is where the trail ended for me in 2002. In 2004, Bruce Robinson

                commissioned me to help with the research on his book and very much

                as a side issue just asked me to take another look into the Diary’s

                provenance. We discussed the stories associated with the electricians.

                I had not been part of Paul Feldman’s investigation into the electricians

                and had accepted Paul’s conclusion that they were just a bunch of shysters

                out to fleece him for whatever money they could. But I had never fully

                bothered myself with the reasons why Paul had eliminated the electricians

                from his enquiries. It was only when I had sight of the timesheets and saw

                the coincidence of that March 9th 1992 date( when work, apparently

                involving floorboards being lifted in the room where James Maybrick died)

                on the same day that Michael Barrett (using a false surname of ‘Williams’)

                telephoned a London Literary Agent claiming he had the Diary of Jack The

                Ripper, did I wonder whether the two events might be connected.) That was

                the moment I began to seriously wonder why Paul Feldman had taken the

                electricians out of the frame?



                Somewhat feebly I always return to Paul Begg’s three key questions posited

                in 1992:-



                Who wrote the Diary?

                When was it written?

                Why was it written?



                I’m sorry if you don’t find my reply satisfactory but perhaps it will give you

                a glimpse into my position. I hope so.



                What is your own answer to your three questions?



                Best Wishes, Keith.
                Thanks j for passing this along. I sure hope mr. skinners application gets accepted. Lol.

                Thank you mr skinner for your response. And welcome!
                My own answer to my questions will be painfully short. From everything I’ve heard and seen MB forged it, with possibly help of others. It’s a no brainer IMHO.

                I look forward though to you joining the fray. Perhaps you may also contribute on these boards to other IMHO real mysteries?

                Thanks again.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                  [ATTACH]18429[/ATTACH]
                  What is the relevance of this? Lol
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • I notice that Easter Sunday fell on the 19th April in 19992. The kids normally break up for a fortnight during Easter, a week before and a week after. So in effect the 10th April until the 27th April. Mike Barrett will have been relieved of his commitment of taking his daughter to and from school during this time, thus having more time on his hands than normal for that period.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      What is the relevance of this? Lol
                      Read RJ's subsequent post. The image looks like it might be extremely relevant.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                        The donkey is mourning the loss of his friend "Chubby." The photo dates to around 1937 and was evidently a "gag" photo that was making the rounds about the time the Royal Airforce was saving the world for democracy. Barrett's album is said to have once had photographs in it. Case closed?
                        Almost certainly. Nice one RJ.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                          I notice that Easter Sunday fell on the 19th April in 19992. The kids normally break up for a fortnight during Easter, a week before and a week after. So in effect the 10th April until the 27th April. Mike Barrett will have been relieved of his commitment of taking his daughter to and from school during this time, thus having more time on his hands than normal for that period.
                          Wow 19992, wats that near on 18000 years.

                          Well I guess they’ll still be arguing over the diary then.
                          G U T

                          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                            If you punch the words "donkey in a graveyard" in a Google image search engine, the first photo that comes up is an animal graveyard in...of all places...Merseyside, Liverpool, UK. The photo dates to around 1937.
                            The photograph must therefore have been placed in the album/scrapbook sometime after 1937, and whoever did it could well have lived for a long time thereafter. The scrapbook could have remained in its compiler's possession until he/she died, sometime after which the family decided to donate or sell it to a dealer. It's not inconceivable, therefore, that the scrapbook couldn't have been bought by a member of the general public until several decades after the late 1930s/early 1940s.
                            Last edited by Sam Flynn; 01-21-2018, 04:21 AM.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                              Hi Phil

                              Happy New Year to you to

                              rjp, made a comment not too long ago to the effect that our friends across the pond seemed to have been missing out on their biscuit rations. It seems we Brits have unusually large biscuit tins in comparison to the American ones. Considering the size of the diary he rightly wondered if there were biscuit tins in the LVP which could accommodate the diary. He was promptly informed by an experienced smoke and mirror devotee that, yes, tins of such size were available in the LVP. I was sceptical that the answer to this comment was a tad too quick for the the smoke and mirror devotee to have checked out if indeed biscuit tins in the LVP, were large enough to accommodate the diary, and so i did a check. I must admit I didn't do an extensive search, but I couldn't find a reference to tins of the size which would be capable of holding the diary. Task for the weekend. Find a reference revealing whether a biscuit tin was in existence, in the LVP, which would accommodate the diary

                              Observer
                              Hello Observer,

                              A quick look into LVP biscuit tins in GB show predominantly Huntley and Palmer biscuits. In differing shapes and sized and coloured tins.
                              A rather additional point. .nobody..as far as I can recall, has ever mentioned the lid of the biscuit tin. You see..we haven't even been told if there WAS one!

                              Good luck with your research.. you will be surprised by the different shapes.



                              Phil
                              Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                              Justice for the 96 = achieved
                              Accountability? ....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                                I can’t answer any of your questions, Phil, but perhaps it might be helpful if I set out the evidence relating to the biscuit tin as I understand it.

                                Only one electrician has ever claimed to have been told that a biscuit tin was discovered under the floorboards of Battlecrease. This is Alan Davies who supposedly mentioned this piece of information to Alan Dodgson in an APS shop in Bootle in late 1992 (although we were originally told it was in late 1991).

                                Who told Alan Davies about a biscuit tin? Well the only name suggested by Davies has been Brian Rawes but Rawes has been adamant that he knew nothing about any biscuit tin. Davies’ actual words, when recently interviewed by James Johnston, were:

                                “I remember it was Brian [Rawes] or someone, telling me that it was in a tin under the floor.”

                                So it could have been anyone who told him and this seems to have excited Robert Smith who wonders in his book if it was Eddie Lyons who mentioned the biscuit tin to Davies. But, if that was the case, one would have thought that Davies would remember being told about the discovery by the person who actually made it.

                                Ultimately, then, the person who supposedly told Davies about the biscuit tin is unknown.

                                As for the contents of the biscuit tin, Davies is supposed to have told Dodgson in late 1992 that it contained two items: a leather bound diary and a gold wedding ring. However, when interviewed by James Johnston recently, his memory appears to have improved and he now thinks he remembers a watch being in the tin too:

                                Thus, he told JJ:

                                “Yeah, I remember a watch I think”

                                However, at the same time, he confirmed that this was all second hand information and that “I never seen anything”.

                                Given that we don’t know who the source of the biscuit tin story was and how reliable that person was, it could easily all have been a wind-up or an exaggeration of an existing story. Given also that the date of the APS shop conversation was, initially, wrongly stated to be late 1991 and is now stated to be late 1992, establishing the exact date is crucial because it seems it was in early 1993 that the theory that the diary had been found under the floorboards in Battlecrease was developed and this could have been known to the electricians (or some of them) which could thus have been the basic source for the "discovery of a diary under the floorboards" story apparently told by Davies to Dodgson and which had grown in the telling to include a biscuit tin.
                                Hello David,

                                Thank you for the reply. I fully expect absolutely no answer to most..if any of my questions. Because they are a fly in the ointment. (There was no mention of any lid or not..which I find strange...)

                                Last year I put forward a comment. Any Liverpudlian working man will tell you anything you want to hear for a few free drinks in a pub. Liverpudlian humour is as dry as old wood. It amazes me this hasn't been realised a long long time ago.
                                Because..ANY biscuit tin from the LVP would be worth money..and Liverpudlian working men aren't shy of making a bob or two from items that fall conveniently into their laps.
                                Honestly..you can see this coming. It has 'utter rubbish" printed all over it..imho. People make the stupid mistake of thinking that cleverly worked out stories will get swallowed without question.
                                I chewed this over 25 years ago and spat it out. Tasted very off. By now it is worse than rancid.


                                Phil
                                Last edited by Phil Carter; 01-21-2018, 04:53 AM.
                                Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                                Justice for the 96 = achieved
                                Accountability? ....

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X