So Cross the Ripper got involved in the investigation. Why did he stop?

[Harry D]

Yes, good escape ways in Buckīs Row, Berner Street and Mitre Square. And Millerīs Court. Running like a lunatic from the police or witnesses. Or people looking out from their windows in Hanbury Street.

And still, no one saw anything. Ever. Not even Lechmere.

I've always thought that was incredible, Pierre. What with the high-risk environments and the overcrowded living conditions, it's a miracle that no one ever caught a glimpse of the killer leaving the scene of the crimes. I think the closest detection we have is PC Thompson hearing footsteps leaving Swallow Gardens shortly before he found Frances Coles... and she's not even considered a canonical.

[GUT]

I agree, so I will close my participation in this thread by saying that I don't believe Lechmer wanted to get involved with the investigation, but was basically forced into it because of Paul's voluntarily coming forward.

Columbo

How did that "Force" him to come forward, clearly no one had any idea who he was.

Even if they searched for him "Sorry old chap you must have the erong fellow" and take one of the other routes to work, how would they have any chance of finding him.

[Columbo]

Pierre
It seems you are the one failing to understand this time.
lets be clear.
Mitre Square has few house, mainly warehouses, some of the houses empty, anyone checking the square would realise that there were not many people there.

To say he could not have chosen site based on the number of persons who may see is your opinion, only that.
He could well have made a choice of site, if he did choose the site, with that factored in.
While I agree such a suggestion cannot be proved, neither can it be disapproved.




This is based on him making the choice, another issue for which there is no source in THIS case.
The hypothesis he did not care, while a valid hypotheses is one that so far you have not proved.




So someone running is more likely to attract attention, it is a very small area, even today 128 years later the alleyways make it easy to twist and turn any route you want, if you know the area.

Running defeats the object of escape in such circumstances.


I assume something is missing there?

leaving the thread here because again I feel this is straying off topic

Steve

I agree, so I will close my participation in this thread by saying that I don't believe Lechmer wanted to get involved with the investigation, but was basically forced into it because of Paul's voluntarily coming forward.

Columbo

[Elamarna]

Oh, I see. You do not understand. You said that there were not many occupants. So I pointed out that the killer did not know how many they were and therefore could not have chosen murder sites on the basis of the number of occupants living in the houses around them.

Pierre
It seems you are the one failing to understand this time.
lets be clear.
Mitre Square has few house, mainly warehouses, some of the houses empty, anyone checking the square would realise that there were not many people there.

To say he could not have chosen site based on the number of persons who may see is your opinion, only that.
He could well have made a choice of site, if he did choose the site, with that factored in.
While I agree such a suggestion cannot be proved, neither can it be disapproved.

If he chose high risk places, which they were, he did not care about the number of windows.

This is based on him making the choice, another issue for which there is no source in THIS case.
The hypothesis he did not care, while a valid hypotheses is one that so far you have not proved.

Because the police stopped and questioned everyone they saw?

So someone running is more likely to attract attention, it is a very small area, even today 128 years later the alleyways make it easy to twist and turn any route you want, if you know the area.

Running defeats the object of escape in such circumstances.

And hang.

I assume something is missing there?

leaving the thread here because again I feel this is straying off topic

Steve

[David Orsam]

So I pointed out that the killer did not know how many they were and therefore could not have chosen murder sites on the basis of the number of occupants living in the houses around them.

How do you know what the killer knew or did not know?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;379658][QUOTE=Pierre;379652]

There were comparatively few houses in the square, given its size, and I believe it is your belief that the killer chose the site, so is it wrong to assume he had checked it out in advance and knew that most of the windows were in warehouses and noticed the empty house, then as now they were probably obvious.

Oh, I see. You do not understand. You said that there were not many occupants. So I pointed out that the killer did not know how many they were and therefore could not have chosen murder sites on the basis of the number of occupants living in the houses around them.

Of course if it was not his choice of site, that will not apply

If he chose high risk places, which they were, he did not care about the number of windows.

Why run unless you were caught in the act?

Because the police stopped and questioned everyone they saw?

Just walk normally.

Steve

And hang.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Columbo;379660]

But if the killer picked the sites then he picked at least two sites (hanbury and mitre's square) That were well known as places prostitutes go. Eddowes was seen outside of Mitre's square making a deal so she was already in the vicinity. Chapman was not far from 29 hanbury when she was making her deal.
He would have to know Kelly had her own room which meant he knew her.

I have to disagree, the women picked these spots. These were opportunistic murders.
I recall a story Fido told in his jack the ripper audio that a friend of his was giving a JTR tour and they came across a prostitute and client banging against a wall in plain site, so I'm sure that happened back then as well.

Columbo

Good old Fido and his stories.

But this was a radically different thing you see. It was murdering in plain sight.

And it was 1888.

Regards, Pierre

[Columbo]

[QUOTE=Pierre;379647]

Excuse me, Patrick, but:

Have you "felt"? How could feelings have anything to do with the sources from 1888?



Sure. So the favourite spot of Polly Nichols was in a street where people were going to work. And the favourite spot of Elizabeth Stride was just outside the International Working Men's Educational Club?

No. Those places were with very high probability the choice of the killer. And the choice were high risk murder sites.




Mitre Square had three entrances. And there were a lot of windows.

Kelly stayed on the ground floor in a small room with a broken window. Anyone could have put his hand through the window and he would have seen the killer.

Regards, Pierre

But if the killer picked the sites then he picked at least two sites (hanbury and mitre's square) That were well known as places prostitutes go. Eddowes was seen outside of Mitre's square making a deal so she was already in the vicinity. Chapman was not far from 29 hanbury when she was making her deal.
He would have to know Kelly had her own room which meant he knew her.

I have to disagree, the women picked these spots. These were opportunistic murders.
I recall a story Fido told in his jack the ripper audio that a friend of his was giving a JTR tour and they came across a prostitute and client banging against a wall in plain site, so I'm sure that happened back then as well.

Columbo

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;379652]

Do you mean to say that the serial killer knew the number of the occupants in the houses around the murder sites?

And good that you point out that Hanbury Street also was a high risk murder site.

(Guess the killer didnīt doo a comparative analysis.)

Yes, good escape ways in Buckīs Row, Berner Street and Mitre Square. And Millerīs Court. Running like a lunatic from the police or witnesses. Or people looking out from their windows in Hanbury Street.

And still, no one saw anything. Ever. Not even Lechmere.

Regards, Pierre

There were comparatively few houses in the square, given its size, and I believe it is your belief that the killer chose the site, so is it wrong to assume he had checked it out in advance and knew that most of the windows were in warehouses and noticed the empty house, then as now they were probably obvious.
Of course if it was not his choice of site, that will not apply

Why run unless you were caught in the act? Just walk normally.

Steve

[Pierre]

Yes. And I would really like to hear Fishermanīs explanation of the established fact that one torso was placed in the new Scotland Yard building and also of Arnolds story about a police inspector telling him about a murder in Backchurch Lane a year after the murder of Annie Chapman.

But of course, he has also chosen to call Lechmereīs sighting of a policeman in Buckīs Row a "Scam".

Regards, Pierre

Fisherman?

[David Orsam]

Running like a lunatic from the police or witnesses.

I've often wondered how Jack the Ripper would have run. Like a lunatic, perhaps?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;379650]

But comparatively few occupants to look out, certain when compared to Hanbury Street for example, And while 3 entrance mean people can come from any direction, it equally gives a three routes for escape too.

Steve

Do you mean to say that the serial killer knew the number of the occupants in the houses around the murder sites?

And good that you point out that Hanbury Street also was a high risk murder site.

(Guess the killer didnīt doo a comparative analysis.)

Yes, good escape ways in Buckīs Row, Berner Street and Mitre Square. And Millerīs Court. Running like a lunatic from the police or witnesses. Or people looking out from their windows in Hanbury Street.

And still, no one saw anything. Ever. Not even Lechmere.

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;379647]

Mitre Square had three entrances. And there were a lot of windows.

But comparatively few occupants to look out, certain when compared to Hanbury Street for example, And while 3 entrance mean people can come from any direction, it equally gives a three routes for escape too.

Steve

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Patrick S;379640]

Good point. I have always felt that JtR didn't choose the victims or the locales so much as the chose him.

Excuse me, Patrick, but:

Have you "felt"? How could feelings have anything to do with the sources from 1888?

That is to say that these women sought him out and took him to their favored spots.

Sure. So the favourite spot of Polly Nichols was in a street where people were going to work. And the favourite spot of Elizabeth Stride was just outside the International Working Men's Educational Club?

No. Those places were with very high probability the choice of the killer. And the choice were high risk murder sites.

I still maintain that's most likely. But, the Lechmere business has had the affect of causing me to think differently about many aspects of the crimes, the players involved. And I've become intrigued to some degree about the escalation the mutilations, culminating with Kelly. I began thinking about Nichols, Bucks Row. The comparatively minor mutilations (there is a theory that Nichols was extensively mutilated, but that the press didn't report it as it was deemed distasteful and too salacious for Victorian times; the press subsequently abandoned such discretion with Chapman, et al), and the comparative lack of privacy. With each crime it seems as if the killer either was afforded by the victim or sought more private environs (or at least the most private possible that specific spot). May be coincidence and spots were chosen by the victims. Maybe the killer influenced them. We'll never know. Interesting to consider.

Mitre Square had three entrances. And there were a lot of windows.

Kelly stayed on the ground floor in a small room with a broken window. Anyone could have put his hand through the window and he would have seen the killer.

Regards, Pierre

[Patrick S]

It must've been very dark or she was bundled up to the neck in clothes because a cut throat to the spine makes an awful big gap when the head rolls. I don't think they're lying but at the same time Paul had enough light to see the position of the skirt and decided to pull it down for proprieties sake. Just struck me as kind of odd.

You're right on the other part. Of course we don't know how much JTR directed his victims to the spot they were found, so it may not have been up to him at all. Even MJK took him to her room.

Columbo

I was in the Bahamas last month, a rather rustic island called Eleuthera. Beautiful place. The house our family rented was on some cliffs above the beach. One night the moon was full and it seemed as if were daylight at 3am. Amazing. Conversely, one night we had thick clouds, no moon or stars. There is virtually no ambient light from cities (there are none on the island), no street lights, no neighbor's lights (we had no neighbors), and no lights on in our house. It was black. You could not make out your feet below you. I assume that the level of darkness in Buck's Row, with no street lights (save one at the end of the street), no lights from the surrounding flats, was along the same lines.