The Lechmere trail - so far

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Patrick S: If Cross killed Nichols, we can reconstruct a version of what may have occurred in Bucks Row:

    If Lechmere killed Nichols we can reconstruct more than one version. But all in all, the possibilities are somewhat linited - ads they always are when we have detailed knowledge to some extent.

    At 3:40AM Charles Cross was mutilating Polly Nichols’ abdomen and administering the two cuts to her throat (nearly decapitating her). He was disturbed by Robert Paul, whose footsteps he heard approaching, about 40 yards off.

    Here I would tend to think that the cuts to the neck were directly lead on by Pauls arrival. A coup de grace, thus - à la Tabram.

    Robert Paul tells us that “he saw in Buck's- Row a man standing in the middle of the road. As (I) drew closer he walked towards the pavement, and (I) stepped in the roadway to pass him. The man touched (me) on the shoulder and asked (me) to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway.

    Yes, he does - the only real difference comparing with the paer interview is that he said that Lechmere stood where the boy was. Since he did not mean that Lechmere stood ON the body, I think the two are not mutually excluding each other. It was a very narrow street, and "in the middle of the road" need not mean that it was measured by Paul.

    Paul accompanied Cross to Nichols’ body. He felt her hands and face, and described them later as “cold”.

    In the paper interview, he said that she was very cold, even - but Llewellyn, arrinving half an hour later, said that the body was warm but for the extremitites.

    Nichols’ clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Paul states later that detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. Paul suggested that they should give her a prop, but Cross refused to touch her.

    Yup.

    Cross and Paul then left the deceased. At around this time PC Neil entered Buck’s Row and discovered Nichols’ body.

    Two minutes after, more likely - as the carmen had turned the corner up at Bakers Row.

    Both Cross and Paul later stated that they had left Buck’s prior to Neil’s arrival

    They did not phrase themselves like that - but it is nevertheless true.

    ...and that they had left the victim alone in Buck’s Row. Cross stated later that, in his opinion (Nichols) looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but he had no idea that there were any serious injuries. Cross detailed why they left the victim under questioning at the Nichols Inquest:

    The Coroner: Did the other man (Paul) tell you who he was?
    Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he (Paul) was behind time. I was behind time myself.
    A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?
    Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-Row.

    So far so good - or bad.

    Cross and Paul continued on together. In Baker’s Row they PC Mizen.

    In the crossing of Bakers Row and Hanbury Street, even!

    The men informed Mizen that they had seen a woman lying in Buck's-Row.

    Not if Mizen was on the money - he only said that Lechmere did so.

    Cross said, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead."

    This too is not in accordance with what Mizen said. According to him, Lechmere only said that she was lying in the street. Mizen also remarked that there was no speaking of any death or suicide.

    Mizen, replied, "All right," and then walked on. PC Mizen confirms that at a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the crossing of Hanbury Street and Baker's Row. He was approached by a carman who passed in company with another man. The men informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-Row, where a woman was lying. When he arrived there Constable Neil sent him for the ambulance.


    Some things stand out to me:

    Cross has either just cut Nichols’ throat or he mutilated her abdomen when he hears Paul approaching.

    The evidence is in favour of the neck coming last.

    Paul finds him – not standing over the body which was lying against the gate

    No - only a hand touched the gate, the left one.

    – but “standing in the middle of the road”.

    That is how it is worded.

    It’s unclear if Cross if facing Nichols or Paul.

    It is.

    In any event, Paul states that he tried to walk past the man (Cross). But Cross approaches him, touches him, and asks him to “look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway.”

    Let’s examine the decisions made by Cross here. Cross has killed Nichols when he hears footsteps approaching. He sees no one but he’s alerted to someone’s approach by the sound of footsteps on pavement.

    That is a bit uncertain - it may be that there was a lamp up at Brady Street, so perhaps Lechmere DID see Paul entering the street.

    He does not run. Even though it’s “very dark” and he has, as yet, not been observed.

    Correct - but we cannot tell WHEN he noticed Paul. The closer Paul was, the riskier to run. If he wore steelshod shoes, he would have been heard easily no matter when he ran. Plus psychopaths lack the startle reflex and they never panic.

    He remains close to the body. He then stashes the bloody knife on is person and stands in the middle of street.

    Alternatively, he has already stashed it some time before.

    At this point, Paul is approaching and moves to walk around Cross. Paul is trying to continue walking past Cross, and continue on his way to work. Rather than let Paul pass and continue down Buck’s Row, Cross reaches out and touches him and asks him to come see the woman he’s just killed.

    He first closes in on him to cut Pauls way off.

    Paul complies and goes with Cross to the body. Cross states that he thinks the woman is dead.

    So he says himself. And Paul says that HE thought that she was dead too. But remember that Lechmere seems not to have said so to Mizen.

    And if he wanted to play things down, then he may well not have told Paul can see no blood or an injury of any kind.

    No, but Paul himself thought that she was dead, so Lechmere could perhaps not take that decision for him.

    It's too dark.

    Not THAT dark, no - they see clothes and hat, for example.

    Paul touches the woman. He finds her hands and face cold. Her clothes are disarranged and Paul (helps to) pulls them down. Paul feels that he detects movement and states that he thinks that Nichols is breathing.

    At this point Cross could have decided to agree with Paul on this point. A point that he knows is impossible since he just very nearly decapitated her. In doing this, he could have helped to convince Paul that Nichols was indeed alive. It’s likely that had he done so both men would have continued on to work, with Paul convinced that he’d simply stumbled upon a drunken woman, passed out on the pavement. Instead, Paul and Cross - Nichols’ killer - decide that they’ll stick together and hope to find a policeman.

    If they had agreed that she was alive and kicking, then why would Lechmere not help to prop her up? No, Paul thoguth that she was dead, and only thought he felt a faint stirring in the body. Paul would have been aware that they had a possibly very serious errand on their hands, healthwise. And he DID say at the inquest that he thought she was dead.
    Besides, I don´t think Lechmere fancied the idea of any further examination, coupled with efforts to raise her on her feet.


    Approximately four minutes later they meet PC Mizen. Cross has four minutes to take an alternate route, to tell Paul, “I go this way. I’ll continue to look for a policeman and you do the same. Good day.” No. He continues on with Paul, in search of a POLICMEMAN.

    While, it would seem, working on a plan. And keep in mind that travelling in pair with Paul would reasonably have seemd more innocent than walking the streets alone.

    At this point Cross, who has just killed Nichols and hidden the bloody knife he used to do so on his person, approaches Mizen and tells him that a woman is lying in Buck’s Row, either drunk or dead. Mizen, apparently said, “Alright” and that’s about it.

    Something happened before he said "Alright", Patrick - he was fed the lie that another PC awaited him in Bucks Row. So there it was: he was informed about the errand with no mentkioning of it´s graveness, he was told that another PC had it in hand but nevertheless requested his help. "Alright" is a logical answer.

    But, Cross did not have a crystal ball. Mizen could very well have said, “And what do you know about it?” He could have asked him to turn out his pockets or asked him to show him where the body was, taking him RIGHT BACK TO THE MURDER SCENE.

    Yes, he could. But WOULD he? Given the low seriousness, given that the carmen had helped his colleague out and been sent by him to fetch Mizen, the latter could rely on how there was no need to detain the men - his colleague would have tended to that.
    And there is every reason to think that Lechmere prided himself on is smart plan.

    Playing it through like this, I just find if hard to believe anyone wishing to avoid immediate arrest would behave this way?

    And looking at it from my view?

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  • Pcdunn
    replied
    Patrick, S.: Yes, but Cross/Lechmere is supposed to be a sociopath (psychopath?) and very cool in situations like this, due to his sense of superiority over other men. So he doesn't panic and run, like any other killer would, you see-- or so I've read.

    Packers Stem: Victorians considered a person in their undergarments to be "naked", which leads to some confusion when their comments are read by us in the (far) more permissive 21st century.

    Caz: Thank you!

    Fisherman: Yes, I know we don't know how Cross/Lechmere met Polly, but we can speculate -- this is Ripperology, after all. Where did you get the two minutes estimate for going to the main road, and then back to Bucks Row? Did you time that also, for the television program?

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by packers stem View Post
    Didn't Bond fail to notice that the Millers Court victim wasn't naked....
    He did though discover her undigested meal which is pretty important so I'll have to give him some credit
    I am not sure that it either your or my prerogative to rate Thomas Bond´s value as a medico. He was greatly appreciated in his time and counted as one of the best, and that is what we need to accept.

    Bond may well have said that the body was naked, but that does not mean that he missed the gown as such - only that it didn´t do much to hide her nakedness...

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  • packers stem
    replied
    Didn't Bond fail to notice that the Millers Court victim wasn't naked....
    He did though discover her undigested meal which is pretty important so I'll have to give him some credit

    Leave a comment:


  • Patrick S
    replied
    If Cross killed Nichols, we can reconstruct a version of what may have occurred in Bucks Row:

    At 3:40AM Charles Cross was mutilating Polly Nichols’ abdomen and administering the two cuts to her throat (nearly decapitating her). He was disturbed by Robert Paul, whose footsteps he heard approaching, about 40 yards off. Robert Paul tells us that “he saw in Buck's- Row a man standing in the middle of the road. As (I) drew closer he walked towards the pavement, and (I) stepped in the roadway to pass him. The man touched (me) on the shoulder and asked (me) to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway.

    Paul accompanied Cross to Nichols’ body. He felt her hands and face, and described them later as “cold”. Nichols’ clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Paul states later that detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. Paul suggested that they should give her a prop, but Cross refused to touch her.

    Cross and Paul then left the deceased. At around this time PC Neil entered Buck’s Row and discovered Nichols’ body. Both Cross and Paul later stated that they had left Buck’s prior to Neil’s arrival and that they had left the victim alone in Buck’s Row. Cross stated later that, in his opinion (Nichols) looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but he had no idea that there were any serious injuries. Cross detailed why they left the victim under questioning at the Nichols Inquest:

    The Coroner: Did the other man (Paul) tell you who he was?
    Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he (Paul) was behind time. I was behind time myself.
    A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?
    Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-Row.

    Cross and Paul continued on together. In Baker’s Row they PC Mizen. The men informed Mizen that they had seen a woman lying in Buck's-Row. Cross said, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." Mizen, replied, "All right," and then walked on. PC Mizen confirms that at a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the crossing of Hanbury Street and Baker's Row. He was approached by a carman who passed in company with another man. The men informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-Row, where a woman was lying. When he arrived there Constable Neil sent him for the ambulance.


    Some things stand out to me:

    Cross has either just cut Nichols’ throat or he mutilated her abdomen when he hears Paul approaching. Paul finds him – not standing over the body which was lying against the gate – but “standing in the middle of the road”. It’s unclear if Cross if facing Nichols or Paul. In any event, Paul states that he tried to walk past the man (Cross). But Cross approaches him, touches him, and asks him to “look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway.”

    Let’s examine the decisions made by Cross here. Cross has killed Nichols when he hears footsteps approaching. He sees no one but he’s alerted to someone’s approach by the sound of footsteps on pavement. He does not run. Even though it’s “very dark” and he has, as yet, not been observed. He remains close to the body. He then stashes the bloody knife on is person and stands in the middle of street. At this point, Paul is approaching and moves to walk around Cross. Paul is trying to continue walking past Cross, and continue on his way to work. Rather than let Paul pass and continue down Buck’s Row, Cross reaches out and touches him and asks him to come see the woman he’s just killed.

    Paul complies and goes with Cross to the body. Cross states that he thinks the woman is dead. Paul can see no blood or an injury of any kind. It's too dark. Paul touches the woman. He finds her hands and face cold. Her clothes are disarranged and Paul (helps to) pulls them down. Paul feels that he detects movement and states that he thinks that Nichols is breathing.

    At this point Cross could have decided to agree with Paul on this point. A point that he knows is impossible since he just very nearly decapitated her. In doing this, he could have helped to convince Paul that Nichols was indeed alive. It’s likely that had he done so both men would have continued on to work, with Paul convinced that he’d simply stumbled upon a drunken woman, passed out on the pavement. Instead, Paul and Cross - Nichols’ killer - decide that they’ll stick together and hope to find a policeman.

    Approximately four minutes later they meet PC Mizen. Cross has four minutes to take an alternate route, to tell Paul, “I go this way. I’ll continue to look for a policeman and you do the same. Good day.” No. He continues on with Paul, in search of a POLICMEMAN. At this point Cross, who has just killed Nichols and hidden the bloody knife he used to do so on his person, approaches Mizen and tells him that a woman is lying in Buck’s Row, either drunk or dead. Mizen, apparently said, “Alright” and that’s about it. But, Cross did not have a crystal ball. Mizen could very well have said, “And what do you know about it?” He could have asked him to turn out his pockets or asked him to show him where the body was, taking him RIGHT BACK TO THE MURDER SCENE.

    Playing it through like this, I just find if hard to believe anyone wishing to avoid immediate arrest would behave this way?

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    caz: Not on my part it wasn't. The evidence is right there in my posts, Fisherman. For me it was always about the dissection techniques used on Chapman and Eddowes afterwards. You didn't address any of that, and wanted instead to discuss how the women were killed. Well count me out and ask someone else to discuss it with you.

    You could quite easily have avoided any problems vy speaking of eviscerations instead of kills. And I was not exactly hard to interpret, was I, asking why it would be hard to kill by knocking somebody over the head?

    Up to you, Fisherman. It's your loss, not mine.

    Or the other way around. The point being, and read my lips: WE-CAN´T-KNOW!!!

    Wasn't that Bond? Remind me, how many victims did he actually SEE? Did he SEE Chapman or Eddowes - the two in question? Don't think he did.

    He saw Kelly. If the killer had demonstrated any skill at all, it was there fore him to see, cut for cut, stab for stab, severing for severing. Plus he spoke to and read the reports from the other medicos. He lived in 1888, Caz, and he was in the best possible position to make that call. So it´s him or you. And guess who I go with? Neither, since there are too many differing views, contemporary and modern. It is effectively much of a non-issue to me, as long as nothing can be proven either way. Saves time, you know.

    No, I'm beginning to realise it won't change anything you already 'think' about anything.

    And in that respect, you are so much more flexible? Or?

    Is that really the best you can do? Proving once again that you haven't read or understood a single word of the prosector dissection discussion?

    Actually, I can do a lot better, but I pick my fights. Make of that what you will.

    Circular, I'm afraid. No deal. Find some evidence that Lechmere did pick up some dissection techniques and I would certainly consider him a person of interest.

    Show me why he needed to. You go first. A person of interest and much more than so, he is already. But shoot anyway, Caz. Spend time. Have fun. But don´t expect the rest of the world to bow to your insightfulness...
    Last edited by Fisherman; 09-11-2015, 08:15 AM.

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  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    The discussion revolving around Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes was about how the women were KILLED.
    Not on my part it wasn't. The evidence is right there in my posts, Fisherman. For me it was always about the dissection techniques used on Chapman and Eddowes afterwards. You didn't address any of that, and wanted instead to discuss how the women were killed. Well count me out and ask someone else to discuss it with you.

    It was a simple mistake on your side, and it is not going to throw the world into chaos. **** happens. Live with it.
    Nice try.

    As for Prosector, why would I think him a real bugger, and why would I avoid him? As far as I understand, he is just another man chipping in his five pence in the old anatomical expert/not anatomical expert game. How revolutionary can that be, Caz?
    Up to you, Fisherman. It's your loss, not mine.

    Back in the day - and I think we need to live with how commentators back then actually SAW the victims and were thus more fit to comment on them with authority - it was said that the killer did not even possess the skill of a butcher.
    Wasn't that Bond? Remind me, how many victims did he actually SEE? Did he SEE Chapman or Eddowes - the two in question? Don't think he did.

    I think there was a possible anatomical interest on behalf of the killer, and that he possibly had some little anatomical knowledge. I fail to see how your devote faith in Prosector is going to change that.
    No, I'm beginning to realise it won't change anything you already 'think' about anything.

    You are free to reason that it was a man with a Gladstone bag and a top hat, performing amazing pavement surgery. It´s just that I do not agree. As far as I can understand, that goes for scores of other posters too.
    Is that really the best you can do? Proving once again that you haven't read or understood a single word of the prosector dissection discussion?

    Look, I will strike a deal with you: If you concede that Lechmere in all probability was the killer, then I will concede that he would in all probability have picked up some surgical knowledge somewhere.

    If he was also the Torso killer, that actually makes some little sense.
    Circular, I'm afraid. No deal. Find some evidence that Lechmere did pick up some dissection techniques and I would certainly consider him a person of interest.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    I don´t know if you remember it, Caz, but a stiff year ago - or perhaps two years - the old anatimical expertise question was up for grabs.

    I recall how Edward at that stage posted how there were a number of example sof murder hunts where the police and medicos frantically looked for people with anatomical expertise - but what they found was men who had no such knowledge at all.

    If I don´t misremember, Danny Rolling was one of these men, of whom it was thunk that he must be a medical wizard, with unsurpassed knife skills.

    He was in fact a simple drifter.

    If I was you, I would hold on for ear life to my ideas on the subject. But I would save a lot of time not trying to argue about it.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    But you, apparently, preferred not to see. The discussion began with my post about what was done to Chapman and Eddowes after they were killed. All my subsequent posts to you on the subject of anatomical and technical know-how related back to this one and what Prosector (big clue in the name there) has had to say about it. I can see why you chose the safer ground of ignoring all this and pretending I was actually discussing the killing process with you all along. But I wasn't, and I'm not now.

    Great as a diversionary tactic, but only a temporary one. If you'd still prefer to avoid the Prosector spectre like the plague, I'd understand completely. It's a real bugger.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    The discussion revolving around Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes was about how the women were KILLED. Not about how they were eviscerated. It was a simple mistake on your side, and it is not going to throw the world into chaos. **** happens. Live with it.

    As for Prosector, why would I think him a real bugger, and why would I avoid him? As far as I understand, he is just another man chipping in his five pence in the old anatomical expert/not anatomical expert game. How revolutionary can that be, Caz?

    Back in the day - and I think we need to live with how commentators back then actually SAW the victims and were thus more fit to comment on them with authority - it was said that the killer did not even possess the skill of a butcher.

    Surely you can see that there is a large span in the errand? Surely you have noticed that when there is such a span, there is also liberty for each poster to make his own call about the level of skill?

    I think there was a possible anatomical interest on behalf of the killer, and that he possibly had some little anatomical knowledge. I fail to see how your devote faith in Prosector is going to change that.

    You are free to reason that it was a man with a Gladstone bag and a top hat, performing amazing pavement surgery. It´s just that I do not agree. As far as I can understand, that goes for scores of other posters too.

    You keep going on about how I should not put too much faith in what you see (or claim that you see) as very doubtful evidence against Lechmere. And yet, here you are, demanding me to believe in Prosector and his thoughts, while all the time you know that Ripperology remains totally divided on the issue?

    Is that intellectually viable, Caz? Have you asked yourself that?

    Look, I will strike a deal with you: If you concede that Lechmere in all probability was the killer, then I will concede that he would in all probability have picked up some surgical knowledge somewhere.

    If he was also the Torso killer, that actually makes some little sense.
    Last edited by Fisherman; 09-11-2015, 07:14 AM.

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  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    caz: You see but you do not observe, Fisherman.

    Still, that must be better than doing neither...


    Don't mention it.

    Oh, but I will: The ensuing discussion was clearly about KILLING and not about eviscerating.

    These two are different matters, you see.
    But you, apparently, preferred not to see. The discussion began with my post about what was done to Chapman and Eddowes after they were killed. All my subsequent posts to you on the subject of anatomical and technical know-how related back to this one and what Prosector (big clue in the name there) has had to say about it. I can see why you chose the safer ground of ignoring all this and pretending I was actually discussing the killing process with you all along. But I wasn't, and I'm not now.

    Great as a diversionary tactic, but only a temporary one. If you'd still prefer to avoid the Prosector spectre like the plague, I'd understand completely. It's a real bugger.

    Love,

    Caz
    X

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
    Doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

    I think how Cross/Lechmere located Polly needs to worked into this theory, and that may impact the timings. Even if there are ten extra minutes unaccounted for of his time, would that be enough to leave home, go to the busier street, get Polly, bring her to Bucks Row, and attack her?

    Maybe, maybe not.
    The problem is, PC, that we have only Lechmere´s own timings to go by. That will inevitably affect the issue.
    However, straying down to Whitechapel Road and back from Bucks Row would occupy two minutes only, if that´s what you are asking.

    There can be no working out how and where Polly and Lechmere met, at least not on the evidence we have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    Quite probably? Mulshaw junior was 30/31 in 1888. Do you know if he was still living with his father by then, and the whole family was at 3 Rupert Street? Or is it 'quite probable' that he moved there after leaving the parental home? Didn't sons often go into the same kind of work as their fathers?

    Fill in the gaps and let's eliminate young Mulshaw together!

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    There is no filling in the gaps. It can´t be done. We are left with Mulshaw himself saying that the man he met called him "Watchman, old man" and with actually KNOWING that senior was a watchman. The son MAY have been anything, including a watchman.

    It matters extremely little in the end, since neither man is anywhere near Lechmere in weight of evidence. The mere suggestion is ridiculous, and you know it, don´t you, Toots?

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  • Pcdunn
    replied
    Originally posted by Sally View Post
    Springheeled Charlie??
    Doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

    I think how Cross/Lechmere located Polly needs to worked into this theory, and that may impact the timings. Even if there are ten extra minutes unaccounted for of his time, would that be enough to leave home, go to the busier street, get Polly, bring her to Bucks Row, and attack her?

    Maybe, maybe not.

    Leave a comment:


  • caz
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    So when did the family, including Patrick senior, move to 3 Rupert Street? That's where our watchman was living when Nichols was murdered.
    That would be somewhere between 1871 and 1891, for the rest of the family, Caz. Whereas it seems reasonable that Patrick Senior could have moved in with them at a later stage. Really...!

    The expression 'old man' does not necessarily refer to age. In fact it was/is used like 'old sport', more so by the middle and upper classes, to address anyone regardless of their age, and not meant unkindly or as an insult. Mrs Prater was reported to say to the youthful Mary Kelly: "Good night, old dear", so I wouldn't read too much into it.

    Of COURSE you wouldn´t! I do, however. I also take very careful note of how Mulshaw senior was listed as a watchman in the infirmary records of April 1888, so we have an A/ Old man, who was a B/ Watchman and who quite probably lived with his son at the time of the murder.
    Quite probably? Mulshaw junior was 30/31 in 1888. Do you know if he was still living with his father by then, and the whole family was at 3 Rupert Street? Or is it 'quite probable' that he moved there after leaving the parental home? Didn't sons often go into the same kind of work as their fathers?

    Fill in the gaps and let's eliminate young Mulshaw together!

    Love,

    Caz
    X

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    Good points, Patrick. Lechmere the ripper is beginning to look not so much like Fisherman's reckless, ridiculously lucky psychopathic everyman, and more like the supernatural, all-powerful fiend of legend.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    You really can´t get a break, can you?

    A reckless man leaves traces behind himself. Did the killer? No.

    A reckless man cares not about noise. Did the killer? Yes.

    Tell me, how "supernatural" is it to con somebody? Has it been tried with success by killers before? How "supernatural" is it to hide the murder weapon?

    I don´t know, Caz. It seems that you are extremely impressed by rather everyday occurences.

    A psychopath, Caz, is normally fearless, an accomplished and compulsive liar, fond of playing games with people, totally unlikely to panic and he could not care less about other people´s feelings. He is however NOT "supernatural".

    You are getting absolutely nowhere, Caz. You are unable to clarify what yu mean, you blame ME for it, you cannot tell resourceful and lucky from supernatural, you elevate anything that opposes the Lechmere theory to greatness, you conpare Mulshaw to Lechmere, and all the while you cannot for the life of you present one single point that isn´t laughable.

    Keep it coming, Toots. It´s an intellectual striptease, the like of which I have not seen for quite some time.

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