The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Geddy2112]

If you mean thrown it that far from a position right in front of Nichols body, I question whether the train tracks are close enough for that to be possible.

Hi, I thought it was only a mater of feet from the crime scene to the railway tracks. Regardless I personally do not think he threw the knife because I do not personally think he was the killer. This was to fit Baron's alternative theory.

[The Baron]

And there is this thing that bothers me in Lechmere testimony, he said:

"She looks to me to be either dead or drunk"

"In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon"


This is inconsistency, was he not decided what to say?! but more importantly how would he be able to tell what she looked like if he

Didn't notice her wide open eyes
Didn't notice the cut through her throat
Didn't notice nor feel blood oozing from the wound in her throat
Didn't notice the pool of blood where her neck was lying


Did he just base his opinion on the mere fact that she was lying on the ground?! Didn't he try to test the pulse in her neck?!



The Baron

[The Baron]

My point is that the plan of JtR before slashing the throat would be to flee east on Buck's row before 3:30 am, or to flee west after 3:30 am.
His decision would possibly be based through cluing in on the direction the prostitute had brought him up to the spot, or based on his more complete information on where he thinks the beat cops would be stationed through personal observations.

The prostitutes most probably knew where the beat cops were.

So, if Lechmere was the killer, Paul would have cut off escape route #1.

This is one hell of a post, great indeed!!!


The Baron

[Newbie]

Those constables were sometimes paid to nock people up, their beats were not set in stone as some here want us to believe just to mock a theory they don't like, and sometimes there were interactions between their beats, in which direction a guilty Lechmere chose to leave is only a guess, he might have noticed someone, panicked turned around, and on his way he could have been able to throw away the knife, what did exactly happen that night is only a guess, but we cannot deny that Nichols was recently killed, and Lechmere was close in time to her meeting her destiny.

And Newbie, maybe you have noticed it already but I am not a native English speaker, so please excuse me if I am not always clear.


The Baron

Your English is fine Baron.

My point is that the plan of JtR before slashing the throat would be to flee west on Buck's row before 3:30 am, or to flee east after 3:30 am.
His decision would possibly be based through cluing in on the direction the prostitute had brought him up to the spot, or based on his more complete information on where he thinks the beat cops would be stationed through personal observations.

The prostitutes most probably knew where the beat cops were.

So, if Lechmere was the killer, Paul would have cut off escape route #1.

I imagine dozens of people would brow beat us severely if we suggested Jack the Ripper panicked.

[GBinOz]

Those constables were sometimes paid to nock people up, their beats were not set in stone as some here want us to believe just to mock a theory they don't like, and sometimes there were interactions between their beats, in which direction a guilty Lechmere chose to leave is only a guess, he might have noticed someone, panicked turned around, and on his way he could have been able to throw away the knife, what did exactly happen that night is only a guess, but we cannot deny that Nichols was recently killed, and Lechmere was close in time to her meeting her destiny.

The Baron

Police beats were fairly standardised, but with some latitude for the side line of "Knocking Up", or investigating unusual matters, or talking to people on the beat. However, they were not permitted to leave their beat to transgress into the territory of another Division without a very good reason. If Cross just told Mizen there was a woman lying in Buck's Row, Mizen may have considered whether that was in the providence of Neil. Had Cross added that he thought the woman was dead, Mizen would have have had more reason to consider abandoning his beat, but the addition of the statement that another PC wanted assistance would be sufficient reason for Mizen to respond. What then has to be decided is, did Cross say that or, was Mizen saying that Cross said it to validate his leaving his beat.

If Cross was leaving after killing Polly, and had secreted the knife on his person, he would have had no reason to panic upon seeing another person, PC or otherwise. At that stage he was the only person to know that there was a body in the street, and he could have just proceeded to walk to work without being stopped, as a Police Constable would have no reason to suspect a man walking to work of anything but just that. I can't quite see the logic in proposing that Cross would panic and attempt to escape back towards the scene of the crime to go home. If he then ran into Thain would he again about face?

I appreciate that you are canvassing opinion on an alternative - it appears to me the pluses are heavily outnumbered by the minuses.

Cheers, George

[Newbie]

Hi RJ,

I'm just seeking some clarification. My understanding is that when Cross and Paul were standing over the body, Neil would have been somewhere in Queen Ann St, or Thomas St, and would have been approaching from the western end of Buck's Row. I am I mistaken?

Cheers, George

Unknown! However, no mention of Queen Anne Street.

The big question is: was Neil moving north up Thomas Street or south down Thomas street when entering Buck's row?

All we have to go by concerning Neil's route and his presence on the go around before encountering Polly Nichols body is:

A. Some comments made by Inspector Spratling in an interview:

- "The beat is a very short one, and quickly walked over would not occupy more than 12 minutes".
- Neil "would have been "within sound" of this place in Buck's-row from time to time during the night - more or less during the whole of the night."
- "Constable Neil was the only one whose duty it was to pass through Buck's-row"

B. The newspaper 'Echo' who claimed that one of their journalists obtained the streets to be covered by PC Neils beat:

• “A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c.”

C. Testimony by Neil at the inquest

- Daily News - 9/3: “Police constable John Neil deposed that on Friday morning at a quarter to four o'clock he was going down Buck's Row, Whitechapel, from Thomas Street to Brady Street, when ....”

- John Neil: I examined the road, but did not see the mark of wheels. The first to arrive on the scene after I had discovered the body were two men who work at a slaughter-house opposite. They said they knew nothing of the affair, and that they had not heard any screams. I had previously seen the men at work. That would be about a quarter-past three, or half-an-hour before I found the body.

- and then Neil makes some mention of being a long White Chapel road at 3:30 am that I'll try to locate again.


There might be a few other nuggets I missed.

[Newbie]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

That could be Baron.

I was thinking he only figured going in that his escape route was westward, back to Brady street.
That was the plan and an organized serial killer would have an escape plan going in, no doubt

Did Paul arrive earlier than expected and was Lechmere (if the killer) then thrown into confusion.
Maybe, that was when Polly Nichols throat was slashed a 2nd time, to make sure.

We'll never know, but it certainly would give a sound reason why Lechmere, if the killer, would choose to bluff his way out.

Its around the time when he should be arriving on Buck's row,

and since Herlock astutely observes that no one really knows anything about the time, that argument would certainly stick.


Was that when Polly Nichols throat was slashed a 2nd time to make sure she was incapacitated?
Or at the beginning, he was unsure of himself ....
the only other victim with two throat slashes was Annie Chapman.

[GBinOz]

Neil was approaching Buck's Row from the eastern end.

Hi RJ,

I'm just seeking some clarification. My understanding is that when Cross and Paul were standing over the body, Neil would have been somewhere in Queen Ann St, or Thomas St, and would have been approaching from the western end of Buck's Row. I am I mistaken?

Cheers, George

[Newbie]

Oh!

And btw, Lech should have been scooting faster then Paul down Buck's row to make it to work on time.

But, Paul would need to gain ground on Lechmere quite a bit to support Lechmere's testimony.

Unless you are of the crowd that thinks Paul just flat out didn't notice Lechmere walking under the lights of the northern wall
of the Albion Brewery, some 40 yards ahead.


Of course, there is no proof that the lights were turned on at that particularly time, on that particular morning.

[The Baron]

Those constables were sometimes paid to nock people up, their beats were not set in stone as some here want us to believe just to mock a theory they don't like, and sometimes there were interactions between their beats, in which direction a guilty Lechmere chose to leave is only a guess, he might have noticed someone, panicked turned around, and on his way he could have been able to throw away the knife, what did exactly happen that night is only a guess, but we cannot deny that Nichols was recently killed, and Lechmere was close in time to her meeting her destiny.

And Newbie, maybe you have noticed it already but I am not a native English speaker, so please excuse me if I am not always clear.


The Baron

[Newbie]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

That could be Baron.

I was thinking he only figured going in that his escape route was eastward, back to Brady street.
That was the plan and an organized serial killer would have an escape plan going in, no doubt

Did Paul arrive earlier than expected, closing off the escape route and was Lechmere (if the killer) then thrown into confusion?
Maybe, and perhaps that was when Polly Nichols throat was slashed a 2nd time, to make sure.

We'll never know, and of course Annie Chapman's throat was also slashed twice,
but it certainly would give a sound reason why Lechmere, if the killer, would choose to bluff his way out.

Its around the time when he should be arriving on Buck's row,
as Herlock has astutely pointed out previously,

and since Herlock also demands that no one really knows anything about the time back then - its all unreliable,
that statement would certainly stick.

[The Baron]

Not knowing the exact streets of Mizen's beat--because they are imperfectly recorded--- is not the same as saying we don't know that he was not patrolling in J-Division!

He's an H-Division constable who was patrolling to the west of where you thought he would be.


Here's Frank's map of PC John Neil's beat (the yellow lines):



The red mark is where Lechmere and Paul met Mizen at 3:45 pm. The bottom point of the green line is the furthest east Mizen would have traveled while walking his beat.

5-10 minutes before 3:45 Mizen would have been even further off to the left of the map.

In your original post, you had Lechmere murdering Nichols, then traveling at least 220 yards to the west. The earliest he could have spotted Mizen is somewhere near the red mark (and even that is doubtful) and at that joint there is a junction which would allow Lechmere to travel in three different directions to avoid Mizen rather than to foolishly returning to the scene of the murder.

Further, you have Lechmere traveling a round trip of 440 yards only to meet Mizen again--and yet Mizen has only gotten as far as the corner of Hanbury Street and Baker's Row.

If I were you, I'd stick with Kozminski.

This is your opinion, which is good, so thanks again, you want to make the area between Buck's Row and Backer's Row totally free of anyone at that time frame, no problem, your opinion.

And where did you get the impression that I am looking for an alternative suspect??

If I were you, I would stick to my good old respectful manner.


The Baron

[rjpalmer]

Neither you nor Frank know the exact location of Mizen 5 to 10 Minutes before Lechmere and Paul met him, and don't repeat to me that he must have been further west, we just don't know.

I put this scenario for feedback, you don't like it, no problem, move on.



The Baron

Not knowing the exact streets of Mizen's beat--because they are imperfectly recorded--- is not the same as saying we don't know that he was not patrolling in J-Division!

He's an H-Division constable who was patrolling to the west of where you thought he would be.


Here's Frank's map of PC John Neil's beat (the yellow lines):



The red mark is where Lechmere and Paul met Mizen at 3:45 am. The bottom point of the green line is the furthest east Mizen would have traveled while walking his beat.

5-10 minutes before 3:45 Mizen would have been even further off to the left of the map.

In your original post, you had Lechmere murdering Nichols, then traveling at least 220 yards to the west. The earliest he could have spotted Mizen is somewhere near the red mark (and even that is doubtful) and at that point there is a junction which would allow Lechmere to travel in three different directions to avoid Mizen rather than to foolishly returning to the scene of the murder. North on Baker's Row; South on Baker's Row; forward onto Old Montague Street.

Further, you have Lechmere traveling a round trip of 440 yards only to meet Mizen again--and yet Mizen has only gotten as far as the corner of Hanbury Street and Baker's Row. He's walked 75-100 yards in the time it would have taken Lechmere to walk 440 plus meet up with Paul.

If I were you, I'd stick with Kozminski.

[The Baron]

Neil was approaching Buck's Row from the eastern end.

To spot Mizen, Lechmere would have traveled at least 220 yards to the west and around two corners.

This is why Frank tried to gently tell you that your scenario didn't make a heck of a lot of sense.

Neither you nor Frank know the exact location of Mizen 5 to 10 Minutes before Lechmere and Paul met him, and don't repeat to me that he must have been further west, we just don't know.

I put this scenario for feedback, you don't like it, no problem, move on.



The Baron

[rjpalmer]

My point is he noticed a policeman or someone, no matter who, Mizen or Neil or any one and he panicked and turned around.

And Mizen's beat is not entirely clear to me.


The Baron

Neil was approaching Buck's Row from the eastern end.

To spot Mizen, Lechmere would have traveled at least 220 yards to the west and around two corners.

This is why Frank tried to gently tell you that your scenario didn't make a heck of a lot of sense.