Charles Lechmere and the Curious Case of Henry John Holland

[Dupin]

I too love the city of Chester. Those covered walkways, the walls, the cathedral, the half-timbered buildings, the riverside, the ampitheatre, the racecourse.
Other cities are available.
Dupin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester

[rjpalmer]

You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?

And anyway, Chester is famous for its walls. Don't you think 'citadel' is more appropriate than town? My guide called it a 'walled cathedral city.'

[rjpalmer]

You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?

It's an American thing. 'Town' seems insulting.

[MrBarnett]

You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?

RJ,

If you ever find yourself back this way, I’ll take you on a walk that will put your Rumbelow ramble in the shade.

And the pints will be on me

Gary

[MrBarnett]

I sense a trick question, but yes. A gentleman named Rumbelow showed me around the East End in the 90s, though any deficiencies I have are strictly my own. I’ve been to London, Ontario, too. And New London, New Hampshire. I’ve never been to London, Texas, nor Paris, Texas.

I think my favorite parts of London were Highgate and Brixton, for wildly different reasons, and my favorite city in the UK was Chester, but I only saw a fraction of the isles.

You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?

[rjpalmer]

An amazing discovery, RJ!

I'm not always great when it comes to deciphering British accents, but I'm fairly astute at deciphering British sarcasm.

Perhaps my foray into Henry Holland deserves particular scorn, seeing that he traveled through the same 'murder zone' as Lechmere, and left 'strong evidence' that he withheld his address from the coroner. Lift not the painted veil.

[rjpalmer]

RJ,

Have you ever been to London?

Gary

I sense a trick question, but yes. A gentleman named Rumbelow showed me around the East End in the 90s, though any deficiencies I have are strictly my own. I’ve been to London, Ontario, too. And New London, New Hampshire. I’ve never been to London, Texas, nor Paris, Texas.

I think my favorite parts of London were Highgate and Brixton, for wildly different reasons, and my favorite city in the UK was Chester, but I only saw a fraction of the isles.

[MrBarnett]

RJ,

Have you ever been to London?

Gary

[MrBarnett]

I was born in the East End of a tiny town in the Great Plains, not dissimilar in landscape to Siberia, and where everyone sounded exactly the same.

And thought the same, as well.

The way I look at it, any trouble over cockney pronunciation would just be another 'layer' that we have to dig through. How does one determine what is cockney and what is a head cold?

Until I know otherwise, I will file it alongside shuffling papers, coughing court clerks, bad acoustics, stuffed-up sinuses, and witnesses who may or may not have been psychopathic.

Chris is Chris Phillips, who I believe uploaded the info about coroners on an earlier Lechmere thread, and their demands for name, address, and occupation.

I was looking at some of the mistakes made in the Daily Telegraph coverage of the inquests.

'Henry' Llewellyn, Charles 'Andrew' Cross, PC John 'Thail,' Robert 'Baul,' Inspector 'Spratley,' Robert 'Marne,' George 'Baxter' Phillips, William 'Wess,' Lewis 'Dienishitz,' and Edward 'Johnson.'

I haven't cross-checked every address, but we do have at least one address that is wrong, and another that was inaudible.

I'm banking on Dienishitz not being cockney, but, as you say, I'm no Enry Iggins.

Somehow I guessed right.

[rjpalmer]

RJ,

I’m guessing you have an East End background which would explain your expertise in cockney pronunciation.

Gary

I was born in the East End of a tiny town in the Great Plains, not dissimilar in landscape to Siberia, and where everyone sounded exactly the same.

And thought the same, as well.

The way I look at it, any trouble over cockney pronunciation would just be another 'layer' that we have to dig through. How does one determine what is cockney and what is a head cold?

Until I know otherwise, I will file it alongside shuffling papers, coughing court clerks, bad acoustics, stuffed-up sinuses, and witnesses who may or may not have been psychopathic.

Chris is Chris Phillips, who I believe uploaded the info about coroners on an earlier Lechmere thread, and their demands for name, address, and occupation.

I was looking at some of the mistakes made in the Daily Telegraph coverage of the inquests.

'Henry' Llewellyn, Charles 'Andrew' Cross, PC John 'Thail,' Robert 'Baul,' Inspector 'Spratley,' Robert 'Marne,' George 'Baxter' Phillips, William 'Wess,' Lewis 'Dienishitz,' and Edward 'Johnson.'

I haven't cross-checked every address, but we do have at least one address that is wrong, and another that was inaudible.

I'm banking on Dienishitz not being cockney, but, as you say, I'm no Enry Iggins.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Jerry - I don't know why we should be particularly interested, but I think this is Holland's wife in 1881, living on Wennington Road in Bethnal Green. The father's name is William (a carman at the time) as in the marriage cert., and it looks right to me. You'll have noticed that Emily is listed as having been born in Stoke Newington in later census reports after she married Holland.







I went down a bit of a rabbit-hole and looked at a possible match for the sister Eliza Smith, born Stoke Newington.

It may not be the same woman, and I had the year wrong in a previous post, but in 1871 a woman named Eliza Smith, same general age (a year off) is locked up in Hyde Park Police Station, listed as an unfortunate, born Newington. I think the note says "prisoners under detention."

Sometimes a needle woman is just a needle woman, I suppose.




Anyway, none of this is particularly relevant.

Enjoy your evening.

An amazing discovery, RJ!

[rjpalmer]

Hi RJ.

Thanks for providing this info on Holland.

First off, wasn't Polly Nichols roommate that last saw her alive named Emily Holland? Anyways.

It looks like Henry John Holland was born in Bethnal Green, 1863.

1881 Census shows father William Robert Holland and mother as Hannah Mary. Siblings were: William Rbt (21), Thomas George (13), Elenor (10) and Edward James (7). It lists Henry as a Packing Case Makers Apprentice. It looks like 126 Braemar Street, Hackney.

1891-19 Malvern Road, Tottenham. Wife Emily and children: Edward (4), Florence (3) and Charley (1). All born in Bow.

Hope that helps.

Hi Jerry - I don't know why we should be particularly interested, but I think this is Holland's wife in 1881, living on Wennington Road in Bethnal Green. The father's name is William (a carman at the time) as in the marriage cert., and it looks right to me. You'll have noticed that Emily is listed as having been born in Stoke Newington in later census reports after she married Holland.







I went down a bit of a rabbit-hole and looked at a possible match for the sister Eliza Smith, born Stoke Newington.

It may not be the same woman, and I had the year wrong in a previous post, but in 1871 a woman named Eliza Smith, same general age (a year off) is locked up in Hyde Park Police Station, listed as an unfortunate, born Newington. I think the note says "prisoners under detention."

Sometimes a needle woman is just a needle woman, I suppose.




Anyway, none of this is particularly relevant.

Enjoy your evening.

[MrBarnett]

RJ,

I’m guessing you have an East End background which would explain your expertise in cockney pronunciation.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

Because, as Chris pointed out ages ago, it was standard procedure for the witness to begin by stating his name, address, and occupation, and the reporters were experienced enough to work out that they couldn't hear the address.


As for Holland, he gave his address a 4 Aden-yard, Mile End Road. I don't believe there is any such address.

There is a Aden Grove in Stoke Newington and Aden Villas in Camberwell, but the only 'yards' I know of in the Mile End Road are Chapel-yard and Hayfield Yard. Maybe something will turn up, by I sure can't find it.

Holland's young wife's maiden name was 'Smith' and there is a Smith living at No. 4 Hayfield-yard, Mile End, in 1891, but it doesn't look like it could be a close relative, so it may just be a name coincidence. Her father's name was William; this bloke's father's name was Daniel.

Holland may have had a sister-in-law who was a 'unfortunate,' arrested and spending the night in a police station in the 1881 Census. Same name, same age, also born Newington, but, of course, you don't get much more common a name than 'Smith.'

Chris?

[MrBarnett]

What an amazing discovery, RJ!

This is why RJ is considered one of the best researchers in the field.