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Charles Lechmere and the Curious Case of Henry John Holland

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  • #46

    RJ,

    I’m guessing you have an East End background which would explain your expertise in cockney pronunciation.

    Gary


    Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-30-2021, 11:03 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by jerryd View Post

      Hi RJ.

      Thanks for providing this info on Holland.

      First off, wasn't Polly Nichols roommate that last saw her alive named Emily Holland? Anyways.

      It looks like Henry John Holland was born in Bethnal Green, 1863.

      1881 Census shows father William Robert Holland and mother as Hannah Mary. Siblings were: William Rbt (21), Thomas George (13), Elenor (10) and Edward James (7). It lists Henry as a Packing Case Makers Apprentice. It looks like 126 Braemar Street, Hackney.

      1891-19 Malvern Road, Tottenham. Wife Emily and children: Edward (4), Florence (3) and Charley (1). All born in Bow.

      Hope that helps.
      Hi Jerry - I don't know why we should be particularly interested, but I think this is Holland's wife in 1881, living on Wennington Road in Bethnal Green. The father's name is William (a carman at the time) as in the marriage cert., and it looks right to me. You'll have noticed that Emily is listed as having been born in Stoke Newington in later census reports after she married Holland.


      Click image for larger version  Name:	Emily Smith 1881.JPG Views:	0 Size:	52.6 KB ID:	772492




      I went down a bit of a rabbit-hole and looked at a possible match for the sister Eliza Smith, born Stoke Newington.

      It may not be the same woman, and I had the year wrong in a previous post, but in 1871 a woman named Eliza Smith, same general age (a year off) is locked up in Hyde Park Police Station, listed as an unfortunate, born Newington. I think the note says "prisoners under detention."

      Sometimes a needle woman is just a needle woman, I suppose.

      Click image for larger version  Name:	Eliza Smith.JPG Views:	0 Size:	27.2 KB ID:	772493


      Anyway, none of this is particularly relevant.

      Enjoy your evening.
      Last edited by rjpalmer; 10-30-2021, 11:34 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

        Hi Jerry - I don't know why we should be particularly interested, but I think this is Holland's wife in 1881, living on Wennington Road in Bethnal Green. The father's name is William (a carman at the time) as in the marriage cert., and it looks right to me. You'll have noticed that Emily is listed as having been born in Stoke Newington in later census reports after she married Holland.


        Click image for larger version Name:	Emily Smith 1881.JPG Views:	0 Size:	52.6 KB ID:	772492




        I went down a bit of a rabbit-hole and looked at a possible match for the sister Eliza Smith, born Stoke Newington.

        It may not be the same woman, and I had the year wrong in a previous post, but in 1871 a woman named Eliza Smith, same general age (a year off) is locked up in Hyde Park Police Station, listed as an unfortunate, born Newington. I think the note says "prisoners under detention."

        Sometimes a needle woman is just a needle woman, I suppose.

        Click image for larger version Name:	Eliza Smith.JPG Views:	0 Size:	27.2 KB ID:	772493


        Anyway, none of this is particularly relevant.

        Enjoy your evening.
        An amazing discovery, RJ!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          RJ,

          I’m guessing you have an East End background which would explain your expertise in cockney pronunciation.

          Gary

          I was born in the East End of a tiny town in the Great Plains, not dissimilar in landscape to Siberia, and where everyone sounded exactly the same.

          And thought the same, as well.

          The way I look at it, any trouble over cockney pronunciation would just be another 'layer' that we have to dig through. How does one determine what is cockney and what is a head cold?

          Until I know otherwise, I will file it alongside shuffling papers, coughing court clerks, bad acoustics, stuffed-up sinuses, and witnesses who may or may not have been psychopathic.

          Chris is Chris Phillips, who I believe uploaded the info about coroners on an earlier Lechmere thread, and their demands for name, address, and occupation.

          I was looking at some of the mistakes made in the Daily Telegraph coverage of the inquests.

          'Henry' Llewellyn, Charles 'Andrew' Cross, PC John 'Thail,' Robert 'Baul,' Inspector 'Spratley,' Robert 'Marne,' George 'Baxter' Phillips, William 'Wess,' Lewis 'Dienishitz,' and Edward 'Johnson.'

          I haven't cross-checked every address, but we do have at least one address that is wrong, and another that was inaudible.

          I'm banking on Dienishitz not being cockney, but, as you say, I'm no Enry Iggins.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

            I was born in the East End of a tiny town in the Great Plains, not dissimilar in landscape to Siberia, and where everyone sounded exactly the same.

            And thought the same, as well.

            The way I look at it, any trouble over cockney pronunciation would just be another 'layer' that we have to dig through. How does one determine what is cockney and what is a head cold?

            Until I know otherwise, I will file it alongside shuffling papers, coughing court clerks, bad acoustics, stuffed-up sinuses, and witnesses who may or may not have been psychopathic.

            Chris is Chris Phillips, who I believe uploaded the info about coroners on an earlier Lechmere thread, and their demands for name, address, and occupation.

            I was looking at some of the mistakes made in the Daily Telegraph coverage of the inquests.

            'Henry' Llewellyn, Charles 'Andrew' Cross, PC John 'Thail,' Robert 'Baul,' Inspector 'Spratley,' Robert 'Marne,' George 'Baxter' Phillips, William 'Wess,' Lewis 'Dienishitz,' and Edward 'Johnson.'

            I haven't cross-checked every address, but we do have at least one address that is wrong, and another that was inaudible.

            I'm banking on Dienishitz not being cockney, but, as you say, I'm no Enry Iggins.
            Somehow I guessed right.
            Last edited by MrBarnett; 10-31-2021, 12:07 AM.

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            • #51
              RJ,

              Have you ever been to London?

              Gary

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                RJ,

                Have you ever been to London?

                Gary
                I sense a trick question, but yes. A gentleman named Rumbelow showed me around the East End in the 90s, though any deficiencies I have are strictly my own. I’ve been to London, Ontario, too. And New London, New Hampshire. I’ve never been to London, Texas, nor Paris, Texas.

                I think my favorite parts of London were Highgate and Brixton, for wildly different reasons, and my favorite city in the UK was Chester, but I only saw a fraction of the isles.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                  An amazing discovery, RJ!
                  I'm not always great when it comes to deciphering British accents, but I'm fairly astute at deciphering British sarcasm.

                  Perhaps my foray into Henry Holland deserves particular scorn, seeing that he traveled through the same 'murder zone' as Lechmere, and left 'strong evidence' that he withheld his address from the coroner. Lift not the painted veil.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                    I sense a trick question, but yes. A gentleman named Rumbelow showed me around the East End in the 90s, though any deficiencies I have are strictly my own. I’ve been to London, Ontario, too. And New London, New Hampshire. I’ve never been to London, Texas, nor Paris, Texas.

                    I think my favorite parts of London were Highgate and Brixton, for wildly different reasons, and my favorite city in the UK was Chester, but I only saw a fraction of the isles.
                    You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?













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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                      You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?

                      RJ,

                      If you ever find yourself back this way, I’ll take you on a walk that will put your Rumbelow ramble in the shade.

                      And the pints will be on me

                      Gary


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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                        You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?

                        It's an American thing. 'Town' seems insulting.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                          You’ve been to the U.K. and your favourite ‘city’ there was Chester?
                          And anyway, Chester is famous for its walls. Don't you think 'citadel' is more appropriate than town? My guide called it a 'walled cathedral city.'

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                          • #58
                            I too love the city of Chester. Those covered walkways, the walls, the cathedral, the half-timbered buildings, the riverside, the ampitheatre, the racecourse.
                            Other cities are available.
                            Dupin
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester

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