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  • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

    Hi Lewis C

    I'm sure you know this but I'm going to say it anyway. What Stow is saying is incorrect. Cross didn't murder anyone. So the problems involved with a witness is immaterial. Stow seems to be getting desperate and coming up with more outlandish statements.

    Cheers John
    Hi John,

    I agree that it's extremely unlikely that Cross murdered anyone (except that I think you'd go even further than that), but I think my point is material because it's about why Stow's hypothetical scenario for how Cross could have killed Chapman is unrealistic.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lewis C View Post

      Hi John,

      I agree that it's extremely unlikely that Cross murdered anyone (except that I think you'd go even further than that), but I think my point is material because it's about why Stow's hypothetical scenario for how Cross could have killed Chapman is unrealistic.
      Hi Lewis C

      Fair enough.

      Cheers John

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
        Similarly, would the ladies of East London out on the street in the early hours not have recalled being approached or followed by an overly eager carman in a long white apron?
        Hi Roger,

        Exactly. I have little doubt that the Ripper would not have been successful on every occasion, that everything didn’t always went the way he wanted before he was ready to ‘pounce’. Yet, we know of no accounts of men looking like carmen who acted oddly with the ladies, no accounts of failed attempts by such men. Nor any witness in the cases of the Ripper victims who ever saw a man wearing an apron or looking like a carman.


        Would not White Apron have entered local mythology, along with Leather Apron? Or, if even if this was not the case, would not have Crossmere wanted to lose his apron and present himself, as you suggest, in more anonymous attire?
        Indeed, and I imagine the yae-sayers will exactly say that to explain why no suspicious characters were ever seen to wear an apron: Lechmere learned from the Nichols case that it wasn’t a smart thing to wear an apron, so he left it at work or carried it around in a bag. A shiny black bag, perhaps.

        As for the horse drawn cart with Pickford's name emblazoned on the side, to be fair to Christer, I think it is only his colleagues who have suggested this in response to the often-proclaimed criticism that Dark Annie was quite probably murdered closer to 5.30 a.m.; I don't recall Christer ever straying from his belief that the murder was committed much earlier, so he deftly sidesteps this embarrassment.
        Christer indeed always stuck to the notion that Chapman was killed before 4 o’ clock, en route to work.

        There have been cab driver murderers, but driving a cab is very different than being a city delivery driver where one is left hopping all morning. If Cross had a habit of cruising for unfortunates or wandering off a mere 90 minutes into his shift he wouldn't have lasted twenty years. In the accounts of Pickford drivers in road accidents, etc., we often see the managers assuring the public that their drivers are encouraged and required to drive slowly and safely, but I have my doubts. The Victorian businessmen were geniuses when it came to working their employees to the point of collapse, and I imagine these drivers had a very demanding work regime. The two busiest days in the delivery business are Mondays and Fridays, but in Victorian times I imagine Saturday mornings would have been particularly hectic, as goods needed to get to their destination prior to the Sabbath.
        I already have a hard time swallowing the idea of Jack the Ripper murdering & mutilating on his way to work, but, frankly, the whole idea that he would have murdered between deliveries is plainly unbelievable to me.

        Cheers,
        Frank
        "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
        Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

          Hello A.P.,

          my thinking is a little different, though I agree with your general point.

          In the 'Missing Evidence' video, the claim is made that Cross would have "potentially" walked past four of the murder sites on his route to work, at the time the murders were being committed, wearing a bloody apron.

          It's often pointed out that there is no solid evidence that Cross worked with meat, but I also wonder if he would have worn an apron on his way to work.

          Possibly, but as Gary Barnett has pointed out, one of the benefits of these work aprons was to protect one's clothing from the unexpected and unwanted explosions emanating from the rear end of the horse.

          I have no direct information on this weighty and deplorably understudied phenomenon, but I rather imagine the aprons would have been scrubbed in the stables at the end of one's shift and hung on a peg, but I merely speculate.
          Hi rj,
          I have often considered that myself. Would he have been wearing it on the way to work?
          I think it's probably a subconscious thing, based on the continuing argument that he would have been wearing a BLOODY apron while wandering the streets.

          I wonder if the statements that (paraphrasing) "... he looked like a carman..." adds to that? What would a carman look like? What would be the identifying markers that said, "That fellah is probably a carman"?

          It would be interesting to learn whether the aprons were "Company Property" and collected in and laundered, and then handed out arbitrarily, or whether they are like work boots where you would be either issued with one set and expected to make it last and handle the cleaning yourself. Or even that they were something the employer expected you to provide for yourself.
          I used to work for a UK Company called "Arco" and we supplied PPE, like boots, safety helmets, gloves. and work clothes etc to businesses, and while UK Law required certain protective gear to be supplied by the employer, there were quite a few who went "That far and no further" while other companies would bend over backwards to provide their staff with the best quality in every area as far as they could afford to.
          Some would provide overalls to staff and expect them to maintain them themselves, others would get them on big laundry deals where the overalls were chucked in a bin at the end of a shift and a new pair collected the next day...

          Even when dealing with these types of business on a daily basis, it was almsot impossible to guess which system any given company would be employing before going in and talking to them.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by A P Tomlinson View Post
            I wonder if the statements that (paraphrasing) "... he looked like a carman..." adds to that? What would a carman look like? What would be the identifying markers that said, "That fellah is probably a carman"?
            PC Misen identified both Lechmere and Paul as carmen. Looking at the few pictures, it appears that carmen wore both aprons and caps and were distinguished by that.
            "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

            "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

              PC Misen identified both Lechmere and Paul as carmen. Looking at the few pictures, it appears that carmen wore both aprons and caps and were distinguished by that.
              ........and often walked around on the way to work covered in blood stains, with a bloody knife in their sky rocket.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by A P Tomlinson View Post

                Hi rj,
                I have often considered that myself. Would he have been wearing it on the way to work?
                I think it's probably a subconscious thing, based on the continuing argument that he would have been wearing a BLOODY apron while wandering the streets.

                I wonder if the statements that (paraphrasing) "... he looked like a carman..." adds to that? What would a carman look like? What would be the identifying markers that said, "That fellah is probably a carman"?
                Hi A P,

                I may be forgetting a source, but I don't recall Mizen explicitly stating that the two men looked like carmen, though it can be inferred that he thought one of the two men did.

                Someone here can correct me if there is a source I'm forgetting, but wasn't it Lechmere who said that about Paul?

                Daily News version of Mizen's deposition:

                "Police constable Mizen said that about a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the corner of Hanbury street and Baker's row, when a carman passing by in company with another man said, "You are wanted in Buck's row by a policeman; a woman is lying there." The witness went to Buck's row, where Police constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body. On returning with the ambulance he helped to put the deceased upon it.

                A juryman - Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you you were wanted?

                Witness - No. I only finished knocking up one person."



                As I say, at most Mizen is saying that one man was a carman; he doesn't say anything about the other man. At worst, he only knows Cross was a carman because he is now in court in his sack apron, ie., Mizen learned that he was a carman after-the-fact and is not describing what he believed in the moment.

                Here's the Star version:

                " Policeman George Myzen said that at a quarter to four on Friday morning he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row. A man passing said to him, "You're wanted round in Buck's-row." That man was Carman Cross (who came into the Court-room in a coarse sacking apron), and he had come from Buck's-row. He said a woman had been found there."


                Meanwhile, as I say, it was Cross who claimed Paul had the appearance of a carman.

                "The other man left witness soon afterwards. He appeared to be a carman, but the witness had never seen him before." --Charles Cross deposition.

                I suppose if one put it all together they both looked like carmen, but it seems a little vague and uncertain to me. As I say, I could be forgetting a more explicit source.

                RP​

                Comment


                • Originally posted by A P Tomlinson View Post
                  I wonder if the statements that (paraphrasing) "... he looked like a carman..." adds to that? What would a carman look like? What would be the identifying markers that said, "That fellah is probably a carman"?
                  I haven't been able to confirm this was the case in 1888, but the account below suggests that by 1911 Pickford's men wore company aprons and caps.

                  This is from a case involving a stolen van of goods.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                    I may be forgetting a source, but I don't recall Mizen explicitly stating that the two men looked like carmen, though it can be inferred that he thought one of the two men did.
                    Mizen's testimony according to the 4 September 1888 Western Daily Press
                    The Coroner: Them was another man in company with Cross?
                    Witness: Yes. I think he was also a carman.​
                    "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                    "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                      I haven't been able to confirm this was the case in 1888, but the account below suggests that by 1911 Pickford's men wore company aprons and caps.

                      This is from a case involving a stolen van of goods.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Pickford's cap and apron 1911.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	125.6 KB
ID:	833366
                      If Lechmere wore a Pickford's cap and apron for his work, then why wasn't he wearing that attire on his way to work on the morning of the murder of Nichols in Bucks Row?

                      After all, he went to give evidence in his work clothes.


                      Then why was he not wearing them on the morning of the murder?


                      RD
                      "Great minds, don't think alike"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                        Mizen's testimony according to the 4 September 1888 Western Daily Press
                        The Coroner: Them was another man in company with Cross?
                        Witness: Yes. I think he was also a carman.​

                        The Western Daily Press is a little removed from the action for my liking (Gloucestershire, etc.) but the same statement can be found in the Morning Advertiser (London)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                          If Lechmere wore a Pickford's cap and apron for his work, then why wasn't he wearing that attire on his way to work on the morning of the murder of Nichols in Bucks Row?

                          After all, he went to give evidence in his work clothes.


                          Then why was he not wearing them on the morning of the murder?


                          RD
                          Why are you assuming that Lechmere wasn't wearing his cap and apron that morning?
                          "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                          "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                            Why are you assuming that Lechmere wasn't wearing his cap and apron that morning?
                            Was he?

                            I have no idea

                            I would assume he must have been unless he put on his work attire once he got to work?

                            I think it's an important point that doesn't seem to have been addressed.

                            If he was wearing his Pickford's gear, he would have been more noticeable and identifiable as a Carman.

                            And yet it doesn't seem to be discussed

                            For those Lechmerians it's an important point because it would then imply he would have been wearing the same attire on his way to work for the other murders

                            But as far as I am aware, there were no sightings of any Carman close to the other murder sites around the time of the murders.

                            In other words, if he WAS wearing his Pickford's uniform in Bucks Row, it reduces the likelihood of Lechmere having been the killer even moreso

                            If he wasn't wearing his Pickford's gear in Bucks Row, then the question would be...

                            Well, why not?

                            He was running late and on his way to work...

                            That would mean he must have left his uniform, including cap at his workplace...

                            But I would imagine that such items like a cap and apron would be kept on his person rather than leaving them on site.

                            The question is...

                            Where was the standard place for a Pickford's Carman to leave their cap and apron out of hours?

                            If the answer is that the Carman kept their own cap and apron with them, then that would surely indicate he must have had those items with him in Bucks Row.

                            Consider this...

                            If he turns up to the inquest wearing his work attire, that shows he was permitted to take his cap and apron with him outside of work hours.

                            That then begs the question...

                            If he had the apron and cap in Bucks Row, then why was it never highlighted?

                            He never carried a bag

                            And he was on his way to work apparently.



                            The Pickford uniform is a key aspect of this Lechmere candidacy, and it's always the finer details that are usually more important.


                            We know he had a Pickford's uniform

                            We know he went to the inquest wearing his work gear, which was perfectly normal

                            That must then mean he wore his Pickfords gear in Bucks Row?

                            If not, then why not?

                            And where then was his uniform on the night Nichols was murdered?


                            RD
                            Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 04-23-2024, 07:21 AM.
                            "Great minds, don't think alike"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                              Mizen's testimony according to the 4 September 1888 Western Daily Press
                              The Coroner: Them was another man in company with Cross?
                              Witness: Yes. I think he was also a carman.​
                              This is from the Morning Advertiser of same date:
                              "Police constable George Maizen (sic), 55 H, said - On Friday morning last, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question). I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
                              The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
                              The Witness - Yes. I think he was also a carman."

                              And the Echo of the day before has it like this:

                              "Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.
                              The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.

                              By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross."

                              - Frank


                              PS Just saw that I missed your post #6281, Roger.​​
                              Last edited by FrankO; 04-23-2024, 07:50 AM.
                              "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                              Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
                                We know he had a Pickford's uniform
                                We don't know that, RD. See Roger's post #6278. He writes: "I haven't been able to confirm this was the case in 1888, but the account below suggests that by 1911 Pickford's men wore company aprons and caps."

                                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                                Comment

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