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  • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post

    I completely agree Lechmere was standing the road. I meant that Lechmere didn’t know that, and that Lechmere may have thought that Paul had seen him at the body.
    For the record, I believe that when Paul first saw Lechmere, Lechmere was in the middle of the road, 2 or 3m away from the body.
    And he said that he heard Paul before he saw him and he estimated that he was 40 yards away. So from the moment that Lechmere first saw what he thought was a tarpaulin to him going over to have a look to him first hearing Paul even if only a period of 20 seconds elapsed that’s 20 seconds of extra walking for Paul. That could easily have been 40 yards. So that means that there was probably a gap of 80 yards or even more between the two as they walked toward Bucks Row. Factor in the corners and how can we have doubts that Paul couldn’t have been aware of Lechmere’s presence? And again, Lechmere was estimating 40 yards. So it could have been nearer 50 yards. So a 90 yard gap. And if Lechmere was slightly hesitant when discovering it was a body or spent a very few seconds talking to the body to see if she stirred or nudging her with his foot then we might have 30 seconds instead of 20. And so 50 or 60 yards onto the gap of 40 or 50.

    And before you accuse me of manipulating times all that I’m doing is suggesting a reasonable possibility in the face of unknowns. And this is the problem…..unknowns. To build a case against Lechmere unknowns have to be treated as knowns. I’ll say it again because it’s true. There’s nothing suspicious about a single thing that Lechmere did that night. His actions were entirely consistent with a man that discovered a body on his way to work.
    Regards

    Herlock Sholmes

    Comment


    • >>Paul's Lloyd's interview doesn't say 'exactly' when he entered Buck's Row.<<

      So?
      dustymiller
      aka drstrange

      Comment


      • >>Looks like Bucks Row was better lit than I thought.<<

        See my previous post on the street lamps.

        dustymiller
        aka drstrange

        Comment


        • >>Look at the cheeks under the facial hair.<<

          Seriously?

          That's a modern colouring of a black and white photograph!

          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • >>We know that the gateway was in darkness. Lechmere doesn’t know if he’s been seen or not, it’s probably why he chose to stay and confront Paul. He has to ascertain what Paul has seen.<<

            I'll apply the Abby Normal effect here. Having established what Paul saw why didn't Lechmere disappear like Abby's man?

            "You go get a policeman"
            dustymiller
            aka drstrange

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post

              I completely agree Lechmere was standing the road. I meant that Lechmere didn’t know that,
              Surely Cross/Lechmere knew he was standing in the road after all, so I think something has been edited out here?
              .... and that Lechmere may have thought that Paul had seen him at the body.
              If true, it makes his remaining all that more mystifying doesn't it? If he thinks he's been spotted at the body, or even if there's a chance of that, then fleeing and at least putting some distance between himself and the crime scene before Paul shouts the alarm makes far more sense than waiting for Paul to arrive, and then actually directing him to the body, risking Paul shouting the alarm at that point. Because then he's ensured that Paul can get a good look at him and he has even less time to get away. And if he attacks Paul, let's say, Paul could fight back, and even if he kills Paul, it's going to be a loud scuffle and more time for the police to arrive.

              I really can't imagine how remaining makes any sense if we start with Cross/Lechmere believing there was any chance that Paul saw him at the body. But if he believes he's completely unseen, then he would believe he could leave and remain unseen, so I see your dilemma if we consider Cross/Lechmere as the offender.

              On the other hand, if we consider him to be innocent, attracting Paul to the "woman" isn't taking a risk about Paul raising an alarm because Cross/Lechmere himself does not realise she's been murdered. If he has no reason to believe Paul might shout an alarm, then there is no risk being taken after all, only the seeking of assistance in dealing with an unexpected situation of which he's unsure of how to react (because he's only just got there himself).

              For the record, I believe that when Paul first saw Lechmere, Lechmere was in the middle of the road, 2 or 3m away from the body.
              That, of course, is an assumption though, as nowhere does Paul state when he first noticed Cross/Lechmere. For all we know, given the street was so well lit, Paul noticed a man well ahead of him and paid no further attention to him until he noticed the man had stopped in the middle of the street. That, however, might cause him to take specific notice (worried about being mugged), and hence that's the point he starts his narrative.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                I really can't imagine how remaining makes any sense if we start with Cross/Lechmere believing there was any chance that Paul saw him at the body. But if he believes he's completely unseen, then he would believe he could leave and remain unseen, so I see your dilemma if we consider Cross/Lechmere as the offender.

                - Jeff
                Hi Jeff,

                I don't know if this has been previously considered, but what would the acoustics have been like in Bucks Row. A narrow cobbled street with tall brick buildings on both sides. Would it have been a little like an echo chamber? When Cross first became aware of the sound of footsteps could he have had trouble determining from which direction they emanated? When he heard the footsteps he took the time to pull down the clothing and, presumably wipe off the knife and his hands. Could he have had some confusion as to which direction to flee away from the approaching footfalls until he was visually spotted at a range of 30-40 yards?

                Cheers, George
                “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again. - Andre Gide

                Comment


                • >>When Cross first became aware of the sound of footsteps could he have had trouble determining from which direction they emanated? <<

                  There is no record of Neil having any trouble knowing where Thain's footsteps came from, so I would think not.
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    Hi Jeff,

                    I don't know if this has been previously considered, but what would the acoustics have been like in Bucks Row. A narrow cobbled street with tall brick buildings on both sides. Would it have been a little like an echo chamber? When Cross first became aware of the sound of footsteps could he have had trouble determining from which direction they emanated? When he heard the footsteps he took the time to pull down the clothing and, presumably wipe off the knife and his hands. Could he have had some confusion as to which direction to flee away from the approaching footfalls until he was visually spotted at a range of 30-40 yards?

                    Cheers, George
                    Hi George,

                    Except the street is now supposed to be well lit, except where the body was, making it impossible for Paul not to have seen Cross/Lechmere at any distance, so the same applies in reverse.

                    But, if we return to the original idea that it was dark enough that he couldn't see the approaching person, and isn't sure which direction they're coming from, that means he knows the approaching person can't see him, so all he has to do is "continue on his way to work", and if he passes someone, he could slightly pick up the pace after passing them knowing they're unlikely to see the body in the dark (and by that time he would be near out of the area and could change direction if necessary to get onto some other street), and of course if he doesn't meet someone, he knows they're behind him and he's already left unseen.

                    The guilty Cross/Lechmere is a risk taker, and can bluff his way though any situation because he's quick witted and a fast thinker. A 50/50 change would be right up his ally for the risk, and the ability to be unremarkable in passing someone in the street second nature. And if he picked right, it would stroke his ego about how clever he was to evade being seen. Standing around looking indecisive would be more like someone who doesn't understand what he's dealing with.

                    - Jeff
                    Last edited by JeffHamm; 01-27-2022, 10:00 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post
                      ... Looks like Bucks Row was better lit than I thought...
                      -- Or that someone scooted round as soon as possible and fixed all the broken gas lamps once attention had been drawn to the fact that only the one down by the Roebuck was working...

                      M.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                        >>Paul's Lloyd's interview doesn't say 'exactly' when he entered Buck's Row.<<

                        So?
                        <*boggle*...>

                        M.

                        Comment


                        • Bucks Row. Even in daylight the gateway where Nichols was murdered is quite dark. It’s naturally in the shade.
                          However, you can easily see 100m in either direction. You couldn’t miss anyone walking ahead, but you could miss somebody crouched in darkness. That is until they stepped back from the body into the road.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post
                            Bucks Row. Even in daylight the gateway where Nichols was murdered is quite dark. It’s naturally in the shade.
                            However, you can easily see 100m in either direction. You couldn’t miss anyone walking ahead, but you could miss somebody crouched in darkness. That is until they stepped back from the body into the road.
                            Pemby has produced several worthwhile video simulations of the street.
                            Jack the Riper A Virtual Walk Down Bucks Row Part 3 - YouTube

                            M.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post
                              Bucks Row. Even in daylight the gateway where Nichols was murdered is quite dark. It’s naturally in the shade.
                              However, you can easily see 100m in either direction. You couldn’t miss anyone walking ahead, but you could miss somebody crouched in darkness. That is until they stepped back from the body into the road.
                              How can you make this claim Bob? Those pictures are set in daylight and none of us were there to judge how it was at 3.30-3.45am. We just can’t say what Paul must or must not have been able to have seen? I have to say it but it certainly appears that you appear to be desperate to find ways of trying to incriminate Lechmere? There’s not a single, solitary detail that incriminates Lechmere in even the remotest of ways. The only way that a case can be made is by manipulating unknowns into knowns. This thread is awash with it. Why so desperate to pin this murder on Lechmere?


                              Regards

                              Herlock Sholmes

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post
                                Bucks Row. Even in daylight the gateway where Nichols was murdered is quite dark. It’s naturally in the shade.
                                However, you can easily see 100m in either direction. You couldn’t miss anyone walking ahead, but you could miss somebody crouched in darkness. That is until they stepped back from the body into the road.
                                Indeed, Bob, so if the street was as well lit as you suppose it was, then Paul would not have seen Lechmere crouched by the body, but he would have seen him stepping back from the body and taking his position in the middle of the street, wouldn't he?

                                If you don't agree with this, then why is it that you don't agree?
                                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

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