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  • How big would the triangle become if it included ALL of the murders that Christer is accusing Lechmere of?

    Pinchin Street is allegedly relevant because it is a 'torso' case, but none of the other 'torso' cases are including in the triangle.

    Doesn't that suggest that the data is being fitted to the suspect?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
      I’m a complete sceptic when it comes to any diagramatic geo-profiling, but Abby’s triangle works like a dream for Lech. In 1888, the Pinchin Street arch isn’t in it. In 1889 it is. In 1889, Swallow Gardens isn’t in it. In 1891 it is (I think). All due to his Old Ma’s itchy feet. By 1901 she’d moved again, to Old Gravel Lane where she was in the corn chandling business - same as that of her one and only husband’s family, the husband she’d not seen hide nor hair of since 1851.
      The only thing that worries me about post-1888 triangles is that we don't know (or do we?) if Lechmere was still working out of the Broad Street Pickfords or even a Pickfords employee at all, even though the census info keeps him as a carman. The reason I keep this in mind is that the near-fatal illness I hypothesize as keeping him off the streets for all those weeks before he butchered Kelly could conceivably have seen him offed by Pickfords when their patience and his entitlement to LVP sick-pay ran out...

      Regarding 'Abby's triangle': if memory serves, there was a bit in the Blink documentary where Senior Lecturer in Law and Criminology, Dr. Gareth Norris, did a triangular 'home ... work ... family...' wave across his Big Map. I wonder if he's kept up with events...?
      M.
      Last edited by Mark J D; 01-14-2022, 02:20 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SuperShodan View Post

        I don’t see that Lechmere standing and facing an approaching witness is an issue. There are lots of reasons why this is his best play and why running is poor choice.

        Not true Bob. Fleeing was blatantly obvious, staying was close to suicidal. It’s not even remotely close.

        It’s worth mentioning that he likely had seconds to decide and didn’t have time to evaluate the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats of his decision.

        And in that time he didn’t consider that the outcome of the man arriving would have meant a confrontation with a Constable for a man probably with wet blood on him and a bloodied knife. It’s just not believable that a ‘cunning’ serial killer could have been guilty of such egregious stupidity.

        There appears to be a scenario whereby people think Lechmere has time and distance to decide. I don’t think he has. I think he was caught completely unawares.

        Based on what Bob. Just saying ‘I think this happened,’ means little I’m afraid. I could easily say ‘I think that Lechmere simply found a body then heard a man approaching.’ There’s nothing to suggest that he was caught unaware.

        Who knows, perhaps he was facing the nearby Board School direction, and had his back to the Brady Street entrance. Anyone coming from round the board school would clearly be the bigger threat.

        I think it’s simply just a case of he becomes aware of Paul far too late.

        No evidence for this though. You need to assume’ that Lechmere was guilty first. Without that assumption there’s no reason for it. He was in the middle of the street when Paul saw him and neither he nor Mizen saw any blood on his hands or anything suspicious.

        It’s also worth mentioning that for Lechmere to be innocently walking ahead of Paul, still involves Paul not being aware of a man walking 40 - 50 m in front of him for a good minutes walk up Bucks Row. I consider this impossible.

        Its obvious not though. Steve Blomer showed this ages ago. But to nail Lechmere assumptions are par for the course.

        The more I think of it, the more I think running off is the worst thing he could do. Running away as Paul approaches guarantees that 30 seconds later there is a man hunt on.

        I’m sorry but that not just ludicrous it’s blatant bias.

        I’ll ask again how many serial killers can we name who viciously murdered a woman in the street then stood and waited for someone to arrive.

        How many murdered on a spot that they passed at the same time 6 days a week and around 20 minutes before he had to be at work still a walk away?





        Too much exaggeration Bob. He found a body. Nothing else can be implied. None of the evidence is against him unless we alter it to fit.
        Regards

        Herlock Sholmes

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
          Did Lechmere change his work route Gary? I’m not aware of any reason for suggesting this.
          How about Lechmere changing from one route to another and back again during the murder period? There's no huge difference in length between the Hanbury and Old Montague routes to Broad Street; and even if there were, a longer walk is infinitely preferable to a longer neck. So the guy kills Tabram literally 30 yards off Old Montague/Wentworth -- and then switches to Hanbury for a few weeks. No point running the risk of jogging someone's memory down there, right? After killing Chapman on the northern route, he swaps back to Old Montague for a bit. Yes, it's still full of Jews; but at least he can re-live old memories twice a day... And before you know where you are, it's November...

          M.
          Last edited by Mark J D; 01-14-2022, 02:39 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
            I’m a complete sceptic when it comes to any diagramatic geo-profiling, but Abby’s triangle works like a dream for Lech. In 1888, the Pinchin Street arch isn’t in it. In 1889 it is. In 1889, Swallow Gardens isn’t in it. In 1891 it is (I think). All due to his Old Ma’s itchy feet. By 1901 she’d moved again, to Old Gravel Lane where she was in the corn chandling business - same as that of her one and only husband’s family, the husband she’d not seen hide nor hair of since 1851.
            Thanks Gary
            I would be remiss if I didnt mention it was Jeffs ideas on geo profiling and the maps that got me thinking big picture as opposed to just the specific routes that lech would take(which are still highly significant to me and related of course). The difference being is that jeff works from starting with the victim locations but dosnt have a specific suspect in mind (and jeff please correct if I am wrong) and goes from there and my way takes a suspect and his known "anchor points" (home, work, other family/mom) and then looks to see where the victims locations are in relation.

            I just found it interesting that his known anchor points form an area, a triangle, that all of the victims locations fall within, or very close to the border. as well as the only real clue the ripper left-the bloodyapron/GSG. Having traversed these areas within the triangle on a daily basis he would have known them like the back of his hand and been very comfortable and knowledgeable, perhaps even knowing police beats and areas where prostitutes did there business etc. outside the area perhaps not so much.
            If he was the killer I would posit that within the triangle was his comfort zone.
            Last edited by Abby Normal; 01-14-2022, 02:40 PM.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
              How big would the triangle become if it included ALL of the murders that Christer is accusing Lechmere of?

              Pinchin Street is allegedly relevant because it is a 'torso' case, but none of the other 'torso' cases are including in the triangle.

              Doesn't that suggest that the data is being fitted to the suspect?
              Well, if Lech delivered horse flesh to HB, it’d be a bloody big triangle taking in Wandsworth, Islington, Whitechapel etc. Actually it’d need more than three sides.

              Perhaps we need two main geometric shapes, a triangular ‘on foot’ one ‘ and a ‘cart one’ with more sides.


              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                How about Lechmere changing from one route to another and back again during the murder period? There's no huge difference in length between the Hanbury and Old Montague routes to Broad Street; and even if there were, a longer walk is infinitely preferable to a longer neck. So the guy kills Tabram literally 30 yards off Old Montague/Wentworth -- and then switches to Hanbury for a few weeks. No point running the risk of jogging someone's memory down there, right? After killing Chapman on the northern route, he swaps back to Old Montague for a bit... and before you know where you are, it's November...

                M.
                I wouldn’t argue that he couldn’t have changed his routes Mark but we can’t say that this is what he did. All that we know is that he had an absolutely legitimate reason for being where he was and at the time that he was there. I don’t see what can be taken as suspicious. He found a body. Millions of people have found bodies. The only difference here is the arrival of Paul which has allowed some to suggest a ‘caught in the act’ scenario but with no evidence.
                Regards

                Herlock Sholmes

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                  The only thing that worries me about post-1888 triangles is that we don't know (or do we?) if Lechmere was still working out of the Broad Street Pickfords or even a Pickfords employee at all, even though the census info keeps him as a carman. The reason I keep this in mind is that the near-fatal illness I hypothesize as keeping him off the streets for all those weeks before he butchered Kelly could conceivably have seen him offed by Pickfords when their patience and his entitlement to LVP sick-pay ran out...

                  Regarding 'Abby's triangle': if memory serves, there was a bit in the Blink documentary where Senior Lecturer in Law and Criminology, Dr. Gareth Norris, did a triangular 'home ... work ... family...' wave across his Big Map. I wonder if he's kept up with events...?
                  M.
                  No that was something I was going to raise in response to Mike’s summary. In 1888, Lechmere said he had worked for Pickford’s for 20 or so years and that on the morning in question he was heading for Broad Street to start work at 4.00. Apart from that we know nothing for certain about his paid employment other than the references to his being a carman/railway agent’s carman on 4 (?) censuses. Did he always work out of Broad Street? No idea. Did he work for Pickford’s consistently until he started his own businesses? No idea. What were his shifts - hours, days of the week - no idea.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                    Hi Gary,

                    Id never dispute the many unknowns but what I’m always concerned with is that it appears that some are taking the standpoint - if x occurred at y time then we can deduce z but if we can have a ‘sinister’ and an ‘innocent’ explanation for any specific event then we need much more to veer toward the sinister.

                    Did Lechmere change his work route Gary? I’m not aware of any reason for suggesting this.

                    There are too many ‘if’s’ required for me Gary. I know that it sounds unlikely but what ‘if’ Paul was the psychopath for example? There has to have been a chance that on the odd day he’d heard Lechmere going to work along the same route as him so how can we disprove that Paul didn’t kill her then went around to the top of Bucks Row and waited in a doorway until Lechmere passed. He gives it a minute then follows. And the ‘psychopath’ gets the thrill of being at the scene of his own handiwork. And for all that we know some of the locations might have had some significance to him. (Not that I place much store in the locations)

                    Am I proposing this? Not really but it’s not much less convincing imo. I genuinely can’t get any feeling of suspicion about Lechmere. I guess that there are always going to be some that do and some that don’t though.
                    He lived in SGE for 30 years and then in June, 1888 moved to Mile End. That would presumably have involved a change to his work route.

                    Am I convinced that Lechmere was the Ripper? Of course I’m not. But I find him an extremely interesting subject. If this thread was about Druitt or Kosminsky, it would pass me by.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      I wouldn’t argue that he couldn’t have changed his routes Mark but we can’t say that this is what he did. All that we know is that he had an absolutely legitimate reason for being where he was and at the time that he was there. I don’t see what can be taken as suspicious. He found a body. Millions of people have found bodies. The only difference here is the arrival of Paul which has allowed some to suggest a ‘caught in the act’ scenario but with no evidence.
                      Hi Herlock

                      I wouldnt waste any more time in trying to get through to these naysayers who are not prepared to accept all the flaws that have been pointed out to them many many times in the past with regards to this misguided theory invented by Fish which they foolishly support. All we keep doing is going around in circles in trying to explain away the facts that they keep relying on all to no avail.It would benefit all if this thread were removed in its entirety because nothing constructive has come from it.

                      Witness testimony has been discredited, along with times, and witness movements, yet still they cant see the obvious that is before them, that there is no case against Lechmere for the Nichols murder nor any other murder.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                        Well, if Lech delivered horse flesh to HB, it’d be a bloody big triangle taking in Wandsworth, Islington, Whitechapel etc. Actually it’d need more than three sides.

                        Perhaps we need two main geometric shapes, a triangular ‘on foot’ one ‘ and a ‘cart one’ with more sides.

                        Hi Gary
                        Whats HB? and where is it?
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                          How about Lechmere changing from one route to another and back again during the murder period? There's no huge difference in length between the Hanbury and Old Montague routes to Broad Street; and even if there were, a longer walk is infinitely preferable to a longer neck. So the guy kills Tabram literally 30 yards off Old Montague/Wentworth -- and then switches to Hanbury for a few weeks. No point running the risk of jogging someone's memory down there, right? After killing Chapman on the northern route, he swaps back to Old Montague for a bit. Yes, it's still full of Jews; but at least he can re-live old memories twice a day... And before you know where you are, it's November...

                          M.
                          Well as to any other murders which it is said were attributable to Lechmere including the Torsos if the police had checked out his Bucks Row alibi which I belive they did, they would and should have asked his wife about his regular habits for example

                          Does your husband always go to work at the same time
                          How do you know that
                          How is he woken up (this would be an importnat question because the answer to this would negate the suggestion made by some that he could have got up and went out early
                          Does he ever go out on his own at weekends if yes
                          Where does he go
                          Do you know who he meets up with

                          As previoulsy stated there no records or anything in police memoirs to show that Lechmere was ever looked upon as a suspect and that the police did check his alibi and his daily movements.

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                            Well as to any other murders which it is said were attributable to Lechmere including the Torsos if the police had checked out his Bucks Row alibi which I belive they did, they would and should have asked his wife about his regular habits for example

                            Does your husband always go to work at the same time
                            How do you know that
                            How is he woken up (this would be an importnat question because the answer to this would negate the suggestion made by some that he could have got up and went out early
                            Does he ever go out on his own at weekends if yes
                            Where does he go
                            Do you know who he meets up with

                            As previoulsy stated there no records or anything in police memoirs to show that Lechmere was ever looked upon as a suspect and that the police did check his alibi and his daily movements.

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                            except most of the anti lechers claim he must have been investigated and cleared.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                              To each his own, Gary, but let me just tell you why I don't find these anecdotes particularly compelling.

                              If I found Lechmere at the back of my house, I too, would be suspicious. Anyone would be.

                              But Lechmere wasn't at the back of my house. Or at the back of anyone's house.

                              Lechmere was on a public street and at a time when his route to work left him with an entirely legitimate and plausible reason for being there.

                              That's the obvious difference, so, to me, such comparisons are apples & oranges.

                              Nearly every one of the murders in the MEPO files was committed in a public place where the odds of the victim being almost immediately found was almost guaranteed. Either by a beat constable or an ordinary citizen. Poor Emma Smith managed to hobble off without anyone noticing, but Kelly withstanding, every victim from Martha to Frances was discovered almost immediately, even if it was just Alfred Crow stepping over the body on his way to bed on not bothering to check her out.

                              Lechmere at least made an effort, and for his trouble he is being accused of being the most notorious murderer in British history. No wonder people avoid the police.

                              I sometimes get the weird feeling that the Lechmere accusers aren't willing to differentiate between a man finding a body in some dark, wooded place where he had no reason to be, and a man who came across a body in a public street at a time /place where he had every reason to be.

                              That's the fly in the ointment of this particular theory, as far as I am concerned.

                              If it wasn't for the 'alternative name,' Lechmere wouldn't have been on anyone's radar.
                              I’ve said this before and I think it’s important. Lechmere finding the body isn’t exactly what happened. He was found standing near the body by a witness. It’s a subtle yet important difference.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                                Hi Gary
                                Whats HB? and where is it?
                                Harrison Barber.

                                Although we don’t know what Lechmere carried on his cart, there is some evidence to suggest it may have been horse flesh. They had yards/depots across London. You’ll remember the 1876 incident when a Pickfords driver named Charles Cross ran over and killed a child? That was just a few streets away from their Islington head office (in John Harrison’s hands at the time). As everyone knows, I can bore for England on this subject. Perhaps he carried tea or bricks on his cart. I do not know, but horse flesh would be my bet.

                                HB also had a large premises in Wandsworth, SW London. Taking that as a point in your geometrical shape would scoop up the Battersea body parts.



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