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Framing Charles

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  • From now on it is officially perverse to call the man Charles Cross. ;-)

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    • By 1891, CAL’s eldest son, Thomas ALLEN Lechmere was working as a vanguard. We can’t know for certain that he was employed by Pickfords, but it’s a distinct possibility. Would he have used the name of his long dead bigamous grandfather? I reckon not.

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      • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

        The father’s name on the cert should of course be John, not Charles. But the point is that Mary Ann Marshall was aware of the Lechmere name - while Thomas Cross was still alive!
        MAM was still living at 21, Mary Ann Street in 1871.

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        • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

          MAM was still living at 21, Mary Ann Street in 1871.
          And in 1881 and 1891 she was living in ... drum roll ... Berner Street. So it seems that CAL had an ex-neighbour living at 64, Berner Street in 1888. An ex-neighbour who had possibly nursed his sister during her final illness. Charles was known as both Lechmere and Cross in Berner Street.!!!

          So we have found a plausible reason for him to visit the very street where Liz Stride was killed.

          I’m expecting a Christmas card from Christer this year (unless, of course, he already knew all this stuff).
          Last edited by MrBarnett; 05-16-2021, 01:25 PM.

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          • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post


            On balance, I see more to suggest he was widely known as Lechmere in 1888 than I do that he was as Cross.
            It doesnt really matter what name he used in 1888 as stated he was entitled to use both names.

            The issue is did he give the name Cross with intent to miselead, deceive, or deflect suspicion away from himself. the answer has to be a definate no on all three,
            end of story no need to discuss the matter further. This part of Fishermans theory is dead in the water, along with his blood flow evidence which he also seeks to rely on to bring suspicion against Cross.

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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            • Wrong post deleted

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              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                It doesnt really matter what name he used in 1888 as stated he was entitled to use both names.

                The issue is did he give the name Cross with intent to miselead, deceive, or deflect suspicion away from himself. the answer has to be a definate no on all three,
                end of story no need to discuss the matter further. This part of Fishermans theory is dead in the water, along with his blood flow evidence which he also seeks to rely on to bring suspicion against Cross.

                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                Where’s your evidence that he was known by the name Cross in 1888?

                There is none.

                The evidence that he was known as Lechmere is stacking up. You may want to stop the story at a point where it supports your view, others may wish to keep searching for the truth.

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                • I thought Trevor was all for looking at this afresh. Seems not.

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                  • The Marshalls were at 71, Berner Street in 1873. In 1888, they were possibly the street’s longest residents. You’d imagine it likely that the Lechmere’s kept in touch with the Marshalls.



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                    • Mary Ann’s husband was the Berner Street witness William Marshall...

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                      • Click image for larger version

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                        If I was more of a Ripperologist, I would have spotted this before.

                        Please stress test this, folks. I may have got it completely wrong, but I think that William Marshall the B Street witness personally knew Charles Allen Lechmere - by that name.

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                        • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                          The Marshalls were at 71, Berner Street in 1873. In 1888, they were possibly the street’s longest residents. You’d imagine it likely that the Lechmere’s kept in touch with the Marshalls.
                          I've just popped in and am still analyzing this, but I think Christer may be cancelling the Christmas card.

                          Unless we are to believe that William Marshall saw Stride with Lechmere, but didn't recognize him, despite the argument that Lechmere had reason to go to Berner Street on a Saturday nights--in order to unwind after his exhausting workweek by visiting the woman who nursed his sister 19 years previously?

                          Or have I lost the plot?

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                          • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                            I've just popped in and am still analyzing this, but I think Christer may be cancelling the Christmas card.

                            Unless we are to believe that William Marshall saw Stride with Lechmere, but didn't recognize him, despite the argument that Lechmere had reason to go to Berner Street on a Saturday nights--in order to unwind after his exhausting workweek by visiting the woman who nursed his sister 19 years previously?

                            Or have I lost the plot?
                            It’s been a bit of a helter skelter for me.

                            Lechmere was known by that name to some of his neighbours in Mary Ann street from 1869 - Christer cracks a smile.

                            There were people Lechmere knew personally living in Berner Street in 1888 - Christer’s smile gets broader.

                            But then he pauses, the smile freezes on his face as he wonders how likely it would be for Lechmere to commit a murder a few doors away from the home of a family friend.

                            And then he realises that Lechmere’s old neighbour was actually out on Berner Street around 11.45...

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                            • From Ripper Wiki:


                              William Marshall


                              Witness at Elizabeth Stride's inquest.


                              Born William Henry Marshall c.1841 in Dagenham, Essex. Married to Mary Ann (b.1844, Shadwell) with four children - William (b.1865), Jemima (b.1867), Henry (b.1872) and Mary Ann (b.1876).[1]

                              A labourer living at 64 Berner Street who testified to seeing a woman he later recognised in the mortuary as Elizabeth Stride standing about three doors away from his house at about 11.45pm, 29th September 1888. She was apparently on the pavement opposite No.68, between Christian Street and Boyd Street and was with a man; the couple were talking quietly. Because there was no lamp nearby, Marshall could not see the man's face clearly, but was able to furnish the inquest with other particulars - he was middle-aged and stout, about 5ft 6in tall, respectably dressed in a small black cut-away coat and dark trousers. He was wearing a small peaked cap, "something like a sailor would wear". He had the appearance of a clerk. The woman was wearing a black jacket and skirt and a black crape bonnet, but did not see the flower that was pinned to the jacket.

                              Marshall had been standing at his door since 11.30pm, his attention first being drawn towards the couple because the man was kissing the woman, otherwise, he did not take too much notice of them. He heard the man say "you would say anything but your prayers" and then they walked leisurely down the street. Neither appeared to be intoxicated.

                              Marshall went inside at midnight and heard no more until a little after 1.00am when he heard the cry of "murder" being called in the street.[2]

                              The description of the man suggests that he may be the same person seen with Stride by J. Best and John Gardner in the doorway of the Bricklayer's Arms at 11.00pm.[3]

                              Marshall, his wife and youngest daughter moved from Berner Street to 185 Cable Street some time after 1891.[4]
                              References


                              Marshall’s occupation changed over the decades, but I’m sure this is the same man that was living at 24, Mary Ann Street in 1871.

                              His POB then was given as Romford, which was the registration district for nearby Dagenham.

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                              • That you've been able to piece this together is a testament to how deeply you've delved into Lechmere's life story, Gary.

                                I think it's fair to say that Marshall's presence in the street cuts both ways--and is bound to generate some lively discussion.

                                I suppose it could be argued that even if he was aware that Lechmere had visited 'the hood' that night, and had previously discovered the body of Polly Nichols under the name 'Cross,' Marshall might have hesitated before 'dropping him in it,' because Lechmere wasn't the same man he had seen with Stride an entire hour before the murder.

                                Last edited by rjpalmer; 05-16-2021, 05:29 PM.

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