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Framing Charles

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  • James was drunkard and a suicide, too, who raved about Irish Home Rule. Dead by September 1895.

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    • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
      It looks like Lechmere's brother-in-law was a bit of a hell raiser. 4 months breaking rocks and picking oakum for trying to take on Johnny Law. Charles couldn't have been impressed.

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      Great find, RJ!

      What was the date of this?

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      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
        James was drunkard and a suicide, too, who raved about Irish Home Rule. Dead by September 1895.

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        A quarter of a pound of opium? Bloody hell!

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        • Let's see...

          ELO 6 July 1878.

          I see that our posts crossed in regards to the opium overdose.

          I don't mean to make light of it; he appears to be a tragic case, if the head injury is true.

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          • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
            Let's see...

            ELO 6 July 1878.

            I see that our posts crossed in regards to the opium overdose.

            I don't mean to make light of it; he appears to be a tragic case, if the head injury is true.
            Yes, he may have resorted to opium as a method of pain relief.

            1878, eh? An interesting example of a family name being exposed in the press in relation to an unfortunate incident.

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            • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

              A quarter of a pound of opium? Bloody hell!
              I know, right? Enough to have kept Coleridge happy for a month. I wonder if there's more to that story.

              Heck, Coleridge and DeQuincy.

              You might use your skills to hunt him down in 1881; I've come up blank so far.

              The way he behaves he might be a 'J.B.' somewhere uncomfortable.
              Last edited by rjpalmer; 05-16-2021, 01:33 AM.

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              • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                I know, right? Enough to have kept Coleridge happy for a month. I wonder if there's more to that story.

                Coleridge and DeQuincy.
                And Francis Thompson.


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                • >>There were three 20-something carmen living at 11, Mary Ann Street alongside Ma Lechmere in 1871, CAL, Alfred Croote and George Blencowe. <<

                  Except, of course, she wasn't Ma Lechmere in 1871, she was Ma Cross.

                  >>And Lizzie presumably knew that CAL was CAL before their wedding day. Ditto her parents and numerous siblings? <<

                  A key point!

                  Although they attended a "Lechmere" wedding, they all had to know the Cross connection, making the use of Cross at the inquest not something that hid his identity from close family, friends and acquaintances as has been suggested by some in the past. However I do like your notion that it might have been to hide from distant rels.


                  >>He was probably known by both names and therefore should have given both at the inquests. <<

                  Could but there was no legal should.


                  >>His attempt to conceal his identity was so successful that even today we have people who cannot bring themselves to use the L word.<<

                  I tend to call him Cross when talking all things murder because that was the name he used and Lechmere when talking non murder. And sometimes Crossmere.
                  Last edited by drstrange169; 05-16-2021, 01:45 AM.
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

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                  • >>Coleridge and DeQuincy.<<

                    Charles Dodgson was a big fan of DeQuincy, maybe there an anagram or two to find;-)

                    Great finds by RJ and Gary on the Bostocks. My damn Brit Lib subscription ran out yesterday and now I have to wait till fathers day for the kids to re-new it.
                    dustymiller
                    aka drstrange

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                    • An early account of the suicide is considerably more sensational, and offers us a cautionary tale.

                      The troubled barge worker is now a jovial sea captain. James Bostock is now Edward Broderick. His apoplectic fit is now a throat-slashing.

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                      • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                        >>There were three 20-something carmen living at 11, Mary Ann Street alongside Ma Lechmere in 1871, CAL, Alfred Croote and George Blencowe. <<

                        Except, of course, she wasn't Ma Lechmere in 1871, she was Ma Cross.

                        >>And Lizzie presumably knew that CAL was CAL before their wedding day. Ditto her parents and numerous siblings? <<

                        A key point!

                        Although they attended a "Lechmere" wedding, they all had to know the Cross connection, making the use of Cross at the inquest not something that hid his identity from close family, friends and acquaintances as has been suggested by some in the past. However I do like your notion that it might have been to hide from distant rels.


                        >>He was probably known by both names and therefore should have given both at the inquests. <<

                        Could but there was no legal should.


                        >>His attempt to conceal his identity was so successful that even today we have people who cannot bring themselves to use the L word.<<

                        I tend to call him Cross when talking all things murder because that was the name he used and Lechmere when talking non murder. And sometimes Crossmere.
                        Ma was never legally married to Cross - or Forsdike for that matter - so it’s Ma Lechmere for me.

                        And it’s Charles Lechmere for me, because that is a name he used repeatedly. And not just on official forms. Anyone who attended his wedding or his christening, anyone who knew him through his kids and later anyone who knew him through his shop and coffee rooms or attended his funeral would have associated him with the name Lechmere.

                        As for Cross, it was a name written on a census form in 1861, which no-one would have seen for a hundred years, but it may have been the name he was known as at Pickfords. I’m sure Pickfords would have been all over the 1876 incident, and it’s unlikely - though not impossible - that he would have used a name they were unfamiliar with. I’m fairly confident the 1876 CC was our man, but not 100% certain.

                        On balance, I see more to suggest he was widely known as Lechmere in 1888 than I do that he was as Cross.


                        Last edited by MrBarnett; 05-16-2021, 02:50 AM.

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                        • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                          An early account of the suicide is considerably more sensational, and offers us a cautionary tale.

                          The troubled barge worker is now a jovial sea captain. James Bostock is now Edward Broderick. His apoplectic fit is now a throat-slashing.

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                          Another great find, RJ!
                          Last edited by MrBarnett; 05-16-2021, 02:28 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                            Another great find, RJ!
                            Scandal’s bad enough, but when it’s made even worse by press distortion...

                            Who in their right mind would’ve volunteered their real (unique) name if they felt they could’ve got away with a handy alternative?

                            Not the son of Ma L, if my assessment of her character is even remotely accurate.
                            Last edited by MrBarnett; 05-16-2021, 02:52 AM.

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                            • Click image for larger version

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ID:	758392 Proof that he was known as Lechmere by at least one of his neighbours in 1869.

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                              • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                                Click image for larger version  Name:	5502E851-17D0-4B9C-B8CC-A2E0EEAE48A7.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	31.9 KB ID:	758392 Proof that he was known as Lechmere by at least one of his neighbours in 1869.
                                The father’s name on the cert should of course be John, not Charles. But the point is that Mary Ann Marshall was aware of the Lechmere name - while Thomas Cross was still alive!

                                Last edited by MrBarnett; 05-16-2021, 12:48 PM.

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